Pistoleer Archive

Amaster rifleman is the master of the rifle, master TKA is the master of unarmed, master fencer is the master of 1H, master commando the master of heavy weapons (well, when they are fixed), master 2H the master of 2H swords/blunts, master polearmsman the master of the polearm....master pistoleer and master carbineer....take a back seat to dabblers. Master BH...takes a back seat to dabblers, and frankly, aside from LLC, isn't all that unique.

That's why it remains on the issues list. It's not about balance, or "comparing" professions in terms of overall effectiveness. It's sure as HECK not about BH being better in PvP...because PvP is about knockdown, and 2 shot kills right now, and every ranged professiongets one or both of those. It's about profession division really, and for that reason I think it has some validity. If BHs could have an entire weapon line devoted to them...bounty weapons of some sort, and retain their effectiveness in combat (in other words, get enough bonuses to make up for the loss of master marksman's already marginal usefulness), then it would help give carbineers, pistoleers, and bounty hunters something to be proud of, and keep dabbling as away to be versatile, but not a "master" in those same weapons. At least that's one way of looking at it. Sure dabbling might be more effective at XYZ, but they WONT be more effective than a master when using the master's weapon.

Thoughts, comments?

i personally don't really care, but i would like to see us pistoleers be the best, and get our specials and guns fixed. cause right now the bounty hunter is better at using a pistol and has better pistols then us, and if that is changed then i'll be happy. they just need to give the bounty hunter a bounty weapon of some sort, give them something and give us our pistols.

You can have my Launcher Pistol if it makes you happy?

Very true. The effort required to complete even the least desirablebranches of a profession (and most have at least one that leaves you wondering why you are filling the boxes) should be rewarded with an obviously superior level of proficiency in your chosen discipline. Honestly the elite weaponprofessions should cost more, as the increased cost would make the case stronger for improvements to the lines.

I agree, jaegen88.

Everyone wants their toon to be the "best" at something. Master Pistoleers want to be the best at pistols, and why shouldnt they? They are Master Pistoleers. Same Goes for Carbineers. Why would anyone want to become a second best master? So what about Master BH?....what should they really be Masters of? If they are better at pistols than a master pistoleer, and better at carbines than a master carbineer, no one would pick them. So how do you balance that with a class designed to hunt master pistoleers/carbineers?

I think the devs made a decent choice. They gave BH ~80% of the offensive capabilities of carbineer/pistoleer, and none of the flexibility, or defenses. Allowing for the BH to be the aggressor/surprise, and the ability to switch weapon types(carbines/pistol/llc) a well played BH shouldnt need to be the absolute best at every weapon to take down his mark if he is playing to his opponents weaknesses.

So does the extra flexibility/defenses of Carbineer/pistoleer set those players apart? Doesnt seem to yet IMO. AOE knockdown would be one hella special, I don't have it and havent seen it used..but I know numerous instances where it would have been very very handy. Other than that, there doesnt seem to be any defining moves that sets the Masters apart. So perhaps the LLC is supposed to help set the BH apart? No one really knows yet, but I think that was the design, along with some BHish specials(eyeshot is the only really unique one).

The we bring up skill points.....very ugly here...but, skill points are a characters most precious comodity. As a BH, spending 217pts on a class that will only be mediocre in combat, totally sacrificing most character customization is ludicrous. A BH will always be jealous of those with more points to spend, and they want some recognition/benefit for that sacrifice.

I honestly think that a Master Pistoleer/Carbineer is better than a BH using that weapon. The bonuses might not be working correctly, but looking at the specials and bonuses on paper compared to the ones you get for BH, there are definite advantages to being a pistoleer/carbineer instead of a BH. Perhaps most dont see this, especially in PvP because its easier to master the BH tree for pistol or carbine than to become master pistoleer/carbineer, so most don't have a decent comparison? Does anyone even argue about power in PvE?

Sorry If this got off track at all..summation? Jaegen88, I think your right. I think we need to find a way to make these combat professions feel unique and worthwhile, yet still leave room for dabblers. the current class layout provides a good map for that IMO. but the paths it provides are not distinct enough to validate most peoples time investment or skill sacrifice.

Reeno Baruukson

Novice BH(chilastra)

Exactly Jaegan88. I think it was a grave design error to split Pistol use into two mostly unrelated professions. The same for Carbine. I personally think1 profession should contain mastery of the weapon, and if there are further improvements to be had they should be found ABOVE the profession, not the SIDE of it.

The whole profession tree is built such that mastery is accomplished by climbingvertically and diversity is achieved by moving horizontally. It's true inalmost allindividual sub ladders, and in almost all elite professions. Unfortunately they screwed upfairly badly in this case by breaking that paradigm and putting pistol skills in two unrelated elite professions.Onepossiblesolution they could have used would have been to make BH's prereqs Master Carbine and Master Pistoleer and not Master Scout/Master Marksman. Thenachievingcarbine mastery would still be found by climbingvertically, not horizontally.

This is the design issue I think the devs need to address, even though it is probably too late to fix it. It has a ton of BHs all in a tizzy (go read theirforum postson dabbling and the futility of mastering their profession) and a lot of Pistoleers and Carbineers are not happy with the situation either.

As you know I very much agree that this is a valid issue. And it is definitely not about nerfing BH's and I wish they (and Varvidos) would stop pretending it is. It's about letting each profession, including BHs, feel that they have mastery over something. This keeps everyone happy in the long run.

((I actually just posted this reply to the Dual Pistols thread, but having just seen this one, I think it bears reposting here since it does have some relevance here: ))

It may be a mistake to judge the worthiness of bounty hunters to get dual pistols simply by the fact that Jango toted two blasters all John Woo style. Why? Cos it'd be a mistake for any of us to compare our characters to principal characters in the movie canon. Jango could weild two pistols cos he was supposed to be that cool. After all, he's the Fett Prototype. The movie characters could do cool stuff that we can't. Like Luke, by virtue of his backstory, being able to have a FS slot right away and have a working lightsaber just drop into his lap. I have backstories written for every one of my characters, but I can't turn em in to the Dev's to get the slots or skills I need to make those backstories work right away can I? Face it. The Canon Movie characters are going to be special cases.

I believe that in an effort to seperate Bounty Hunters from Pistoleers, the skills that make them what they are should be accentuated. The Elite Class of Bounty Hunter is designed for the tracking, subduing, or killing of other sentients. That's their main thing. And if it includes way cool pistol attacks that do damage based on the ability to look at a mark and determine how best to hurt him, that's fine with me. But because they know how to hurt people does not make them a master of their weapon. They're a master of hunting down and hurting people. THAT'S their thing.

OUR thing is Mastering the use of a specific weapon. Not carbines, not rifles, not the use of some droid to go track our mark, not knowing what part we need to shoot to really wound or incap an opponent to be able to take em in alive or dead to collect a reward. For us, it's ALL about the mastering of a pistol. To use it better than anyone else can. And to be able to do stuff with them that others can't. Shootists are known in the movies and in fiction for being able to do all sorts of things that would be justified for people that concentrated on pistols only. Two pistols, like Jango or like anyone in a John Woo film, are certainly one of those stereotypes. They can use two weapons not because they're cool like Jango. But because they've devoted the necessary learning to achieve it.

Having low slung holsters is another stereotype that gives rise to possible stereotypical actions seen in the movies. And in particular, the SW movies. Most notably, Han Solo was particularly known for a lightning fast draw. A Quick Draw special action that lets you get off a first attack could mean all the difference in some encounters, mobs, or duels. But then, a quick draw doesn't really mean much when you don't have leather to slap for your guns does it? DRAW!

Another little thing that shootists did in those gunslinger-ish movies was to twirl their guns into their holsters. For that matter, using the exception to the rule again to illustrate the point, Jango did a bit of pistol twirling himself.

Now the possibility has been mentioned of an Elite-Elite Pistoleer Class, the same way that the Architect's elite class can graduate to the Elite-Elite 'City Planner' class once Player Cities are implemented. For the sake of argument and to pound in the term I suggested in another thread here, I'll call the elite-elite Pistoleer Class 'Paladins' after the gun toting Jedi Paladins that followed Nars Teepo's tradition, as well as 'Have Gun Will Travel'

I think that everyone ought to get to have holsters, just cos holsters are cool. I think Pistoleers ought to be able to get to use Dual Wield once they hit Master. That'll certainly be a worthy reward for grinding all that way up the Pistoleer tree. And indicative of all the learning and time they've spent with their chosen weapon. I think there ought to be a sort of Quick Draw thing for Pistoleers if they get holsters since a fast draw was such an integral part of being a gunfighter in the movies.

And if the 'Paladin' profession comes along later, THEN you get perks that we lack in Pistoleer now. Like more and more adept use of the dual wield. Skills that let you shoot a lot faster than most. Twirling flourishes. Perhaps even removal of things like the inability to shoot at things when their lair or a tree or something is obscuring your view. It's called trick shooting. Using ricochet to hit something in an indirect fashion you might not be able to hit directly. Another mainstay of the old movies and cartoon gunslingers, yes?

I hope you may agree with me (though likely not if you're a bounty hunter) and understand why I think that Master Pistoleers should get Dual Wield while other professions should not. There's a lot of room for our profession to grow ever upward into a Double-elite Paladin Class in which this skill would be featured quite prominently. And I think my suggestions would certainly be a nice reward for those willing to spend the time and skill points to earn them.

I do not aim with my hand; they that aim with their hands have forgotten the face of their master. I shoot with my mind.
I do not kill with my gun; They that kill with their guns have forgotten the face of their master. I kill with my heart.

-Gunslinger's Litany (Paraphrased)

-Rookery DeCarabas, Gunslinger Apprentice, Corellia, Eclipse

What I don't understand about the way Bounty Hunters are implemented, is why weren't at least some of their abilities based off of the Scouting skills they had to master? I think it would have been very interesting if they'd gotten a line of traps that worked against NPCs and PCs for example. There's a lot of empathasis on straight up, frontal style fighting in this game. However with the exception of riflemen, there is very little in the way of stealth technics. I think scouts, rangers, commandoes, and bounty hunters could have had more interesting thinks if the stealth nature of their professions had been more thought out. Imagine BHs or Commandos being able to sneak up on people because they have a special ability that hides them from the omniscent radar everyone has at all times. It would have certainly added more tactics to the game, and made skills like Alertness much more valuable.

I think you are correct. I don't care who is "Master" of weapon, I think that's dumb. I REALLY like the ability to create a character that is a hybrid. I hated EQ where I was a Rogue just like every other Rogue and had the same weapons, armor, and everything else.

However, where you correct is this: I'm a 99% "killer" by the Bartles Test, I'm a power gamer, and I'm going to be whatever combination of skills equates to the most deadly killer there is.

If that turns into 100% Bounty Hunter then I will go Bounty Hunter. If that's 100% Pistoller then I'll drop BH and go that route. Heck, if it's Commando I'll drop it all and go Commando.

Right now the most deadly weapon is the Pistol, and the most deadly player is a combination BH/Pistoleer with SELECTED skills from each. So that's what I am. I wasn't in the Beta but days into final release I did my homework and figured out what the most powerful template would be... and that's what I am. Angry that I'm a Dabbler? Tough. You could be one two if you were willing to put forth the effort. Fact is, I did do the homework and I am much more deadly than 99.9% of the other combat classes out there. Doubt me? Duel me. I don't much want to surrender those skills and work toward Class of the Week, but quite frankly, THAT is one of the FEATURES of SWG. If I don't like it, or cannot compete... I can quit and go do something else.

I'm really interested in the dev feedback that is supposed to come out today. It might spell changes which cause me to drop BH/Pistoleer and concentrate on one or the other... or hang it all and go Commando/Smuggler.

The fact is, the developers of this game created a system where in we CAN dabble to get the best results for our specific form of play. They also created a system where people can drop a skill and pick up another. THAT is the fact and THAT is a GOOD thing.

Personally, I thought with how the trees are set up, this was spose to be a focused class game, and a dabbler game. It depends more on the person playing than how the system is set up.

In my opinion the whole problem is that the BHs should get something worth their skill points for mastering the profession. Skill points should be the thing that balances different professions in the end, and considering how much BHs spend and still are a combat profession, a master BH should be more powerful than a master pistoleer with no other combat skills.But the way their skill tree is set right now, that power has to come from a single weapon.

So if you want to do that without stepping on the toes of the pistoleers or carbineers without any major changes, you'd have to make the lightning cannon be their "thing" and make it considerably more powerful than the others. However that would probably be a dumb move since it'd make the pistol/carbine lines for the BH useless to the masters.

Some argue that the BHs are powerful because they have the versatility from being able to use 3 different weapons somewhat well, but in SWG.. does that really add much to them? The weaponskills dont really "stack" too well, you get very minor benefits from swapping between them during fights.

2 different solutions to it, either give BHs something more that's not directly a weaponskill but helps them in combat along with the weapons (which is probably a much more interesting choice, but alot more work), or just simply get rid of some of the useless pre requisites the profession has to free up some skill points to spend on other stuff.

I really enjoy the dabbler aspect to the game and have spent a lot of time trying to decide which route to go. I think its fun as it gives us all a chance to specialize our character. Commando's have to dabble more than anyone probably in order to use the launcher pistol but some are going strait tera kasi which I think would be a fun and challenging angle to take. Such a character could causea lot of damage then go into the middle of the chaos they just caused with a heavy weapon to clean up using unarmed combat techniques.

And I still haven't decided which route to take with my Novice commando to complete the character. There are so many choices assuming I get some medical skills which IMO are a must. So I can get some tera kasi, or pistoleer or even scout for terrain management, which IMO will be tough to live without. Maybe even some basic creature handler, I dunno, I can't decide.

But that is what makes it fun too.

I am pro dabbling. This game is pro dabbling. The point that many people are missing is that dabbling is supposed togrant diversity (which can be powerful), not mastery. It's that simple.

In cases where dabbling is granting mastery there was a design error. Now it doesn't make sense to say this dabbler is more powerful than that single profession. Power isn't the metric. Dabbling can make very powerful characters. Dabbling can also make for very fun characters. There is no problem with having powerful dabblers. There is no problem with having fun to play dabblers. Nobody wants to remove the power or fun from dabblers.

The problem arises when dabbling is granting mastery of a skill. Pistol and carbine can only be masterd by dabblers. Nobody has enough skill points to Master BH and Pistoleer. So the only way to get the pistol lines from both is to dabble. This, in my opinion, is a clear design error on the part of the devs. Mastery of a single skill should be achieved by climbing vertically through aprofession not horizontally. It needs to be addressed.