Pistoleer Archive

Holo said that the Pistoleer Dev is reading this thread ... so post all your suggestions on it:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=549984

Please everyone, think this through and read Jaegen's posts for data and ideas before posting. I think he might be gone for the night so we need to make sure some good stuff gets on that thread while the Devs are looking at it.

Based on what I've read, I don't think the changes are nearly enough.

First of all, I don't think the change to FanShot is that great for us. The reality is that all three shots hit random HAM and aren't nearly effective as shots that do (BodyShot2, TorsoShot, EyeShot, whatever). If they're supposed to hit random HAM, fine -- make them have state changes (blind, dizzy, stun, whatever) so they're worth using.

Second, MultiTarget doesn't sound great at all, for a Master-level special. It quickly attacks mobs that are closeby? Sorry, I can tab and attack them myself ... with a higher damage attack. How about a cone BodyShot3that bleeds?

Third, they totally have no clue with the speed issue. Their solution is not to eliminate the speed bug that allows riflemen to fire a T21 once per second, but instead to make us get speed earlier ... which just makes it less worthwhile to become a Master but still gives us the same disadvantages overall. Bad move.

Their responses to DisarmingShot and Defenses seem fine, although they don't seem to realize the problem with defenses that Jaegen pointed out in his last report. If someone is spamming dizzy on me, it doesn't matter if I resist it 30% of the time.

Well I believe if they fixed the DX2 todo better damage then the FWG5 it would help some in the damage area. I also think that giving speed earlier does nothing except strengthen dabblers while making master even less wanted. I dont want to step on any toes so I will not throw out to many ideas. Please help the pistoleer.

Speed earlier does help dabblers, but that's not a negative. It helps smugglers too It also helps junior pistoleers. It takes away some unqiueness of mastery, but dang, 20% on master was heavy. That's why 80% of ranged professions dislike it, until mastery, then they suddenly love it. Share the love?

I suppose it IS a good change. But I still can't understand that "pistols are very fast". Yes, so are rifles, so are carbines, they all shoot every second at master.

I know, its getting confusing typing at warp speed here. The speed issue is still big, but lets get all we can now, because in the future they may change their speed equations and we could come out big winners there. Capping at speed +100 would be a huge benefit and stays in line with the riflemen/carbineer. Pound this out at that Jaegen (the wife will understand that your very happiness is focused on today's doings right? She wants you to be happy right?)

Well if you dont mind it coming early I wont complain. I love my pistols and want to see the pistoleer get some lovin.

Thanks Holbach

I've always thought a master pistoleer should get a 'make them dance' special, like you see in the western movies where some guy is shooting his pistol at someone's feet, "dance I said, dance!'

It could be a delay move for use on non creatures of any sort, PVP or PVE that hits the action pool only and doesn't allow theenemyto return fire while their dancing around, trying to keep their pinky toe from being shot off.

Would be great vs carbineers who have major action pool issue's already just because the guns cost a lot to fire.

We really need to drive home the point that we need state effects to be competitive in this game right now.

All of the premier moves and tactics involve 2+ effects for one.

What can we do to drive discussion where we need it? Seems to me they know most of our problems but don't really "get it." True understanding requires them to be a pistoleer and go to a PvP raid or on a multi person hunt in Dathomir or Endor.

I think when they realize how useless resistance to Blind and Dizzy are in PvP in the face of eyeshot/knockdownfire spam and how weak pistoleer bleeds are compared to carbine/rifle/bountyhunter bleeds or how pathetic the DX2 is in practice they will approach 50% of the understanding we have.

How should we focus our needs? Seems to make sense that a followup post from Jaegen on the SWG Discussions forum in response to that post is the best way to go about it.

Sort of like a "correspondent response."

Dinian-

I entirely agree.

I also feel that I must mention you have the greatest signature I have ever seen

First of all, I don't think the change to FanShot is that great for us. The reality is that all three shots hit random HAM and aren't nearly effective as shots that do (BodyShot2, TorsoShot, EyeShot, whatever). If they're supposed to hit random HAM, fine -- make them have state changes (blind, dizzy, stun, whatever) so they're worth using.

- Agreed, these random HAM shots need a state effect/posture change. They will continue to be useless if they are not given a better value.

Second, MultiTarget doesn't sound great at all, for a Master-level special. It quickly attacks mobs that are closeby? Sorry, I can tab and attack them myself ... with a higher damage attack. How about a cone BodyShot3that bleeds?

- Agreed, an AOE DOT BS3 (is that enough freakin acronyms for ya???) would be a very valued attack!

Third, they totally have no clue with the speed issue. Their solution is not to eliminate the speed bug that allows riflemen to fire a T21 once per second, but instead to make us get speed earlier ... which just makes it less worthwhile to become a Master but still gives us the same disadvantages overall. Bad move.

- Agreed, first pistoleer needs to be the quickest shot as compared to other equally leveled ranged weapons users (of cource special attack delays would be a factor) and second a master pistoleer/master marksman should be the fastest period (again taking into consideration special attack delays).

Ffej Nitram
Bloodfin
Master Artisan
Novice Pistoleer

ok here is my idea for the speed fix.

since weapons are already coded into categories ie. heavy weapons, pistol, carbine and rifle

I propose a speed cap for each of em independant of the mod what i propose is this:

1.0 speed for pistols

2.0 carbines

3.0 rifles

3.5 heavy weapons

So even with someone at 100 speed or greater the fastest they could spam specials would be dependant on the speed cap of that weapon category. It would still be beneficial to get 100 speed for the slower weapons because of the speed delays on the special attacks i mean a 5.5 speed rifle firing a special that has a 4x speed mod would still be quite powerful even with the delay

How i figured these delays was based on average damage. This pistoleer ranks on the low end of the totem pole here with carbineer following it. Also have each profession hit +80 speed at least (preferably +90) if they achieve mastery in their elite prof.

I know I don't like to feel that I have to dabble in BH to be viable in pvp and this would encourage diversity as people would try newer combos because they can achieve their speed cap without having to pursue bh line. Plus I am sure BH's would be happy to reduce the number of dabblers in their prof leaving them people that aren't just the need to be UBER types.

So let me know what you think, i think this might be the easiest solution as opposed to an equation which without a range imposed would most often just hurt those without +100 speed or greater.

Also make melee weapons still be able to hit the 1.0 speed cap i mean they have to have some chance don't they?

Let me know what you think

Aliester

AliesterCr:

Inidividual speed caps would provide some benefit, but they're really not a good idea. Because the speed equation is broken, that means that not only class balance, but also weapon balance and special attacks balance is broken.

Your solution would help with class balance, which would be better than what we have today, but doesn't solve the other 2/3rds of what speed messes up:

- Weapon balance would still be broken. There would be no room for variety within a class. If pistoleers had a high damage, but slow, pistol, it would become overpowered when it capped at 1 second. If Riflemen had a lower damage, but faster, rifle, it would be useless at higher levels because all of their weapons would be shooting at their cap anyway.

- The same type of situation goes for special attacks. How can you have a slower, but high damage (like Stopping Shot) special, and then a "better", even though lower damage because it's faster (like Fan Shot), special when they're all going to end up capped at the same value anyway? Stopping Shot is really Double-Broken (can I copywrite that?) right now. It's useless because its delay makes its DPS so low that Marksman skills are better until you get very high speed skill, but then at very high speed skill it's broken because it ultimately ends up with an even higher DPS than FS, which is higher level, and should be better.

This would be my first time posting on the pistoleer board, as i'm a master doctor and on my way to master pistoleer, however i thought i read somewhere that Raph Koster or was it Holocron that said they were interested in the idea of having dual wield capabilities for the pistol users, i'm hoping that this will be true but i hope they add it for Master Pistoleer Only, thus making master becomes that much more desirable.

The ones who dabble in the profession like smugglers and bh's will give pistoleer a second thought regarding how effective this can be.