Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The Riflemen Still Want to Kite Us
Raloorn wrote:
Philosopher1976 wrote:If so, I would appreciate it if you could bring a similar perspective to the Rifleman forum. Right now your Correspondent seems to be completely concerned about pushing through every uber change he can for his class instead of trying to work out some sense of balance.
ah yes because you shooting faster then a rifle at the same range as a rifle is obviously balance and not an "uber" change at all.
Philosopher stop trying to pretend your impartial ... you're just making yourself look like a fool. At least you know where im coming from.
Hello
So YES, I agree with Philosopher, we want :
- being faster than riflemen
- being able to fire at 64m
And NO, this is not UBER change, it should work that way. You forgot to mention 3 important notions :
- we are hitting for 5 times less dmg
- we are not as accurate as you at 64m
- our best AP is AP1, yours is 3 (wake up, it makes a HUGE difference man)
oh and we should add you are able to One Shot every second atm, so something need to be changed.
I'm a bit tired of Riflemen claiming things are balanced right now between Carbineer / Riflemen and Pistoleers. It is not...not at all, period.
I am Master Pistoleer so I deal with Masters Rifleman and Masters Carbineer, NOT novices. Of course I am already better than a Rifleman 1221, you crazy ? He still can hurt me badly with a happy hit (which can't happen in the other way, think about this) but I should be able to kill him 90 times out of 100.
Now, agains't a Master Rifleman, the ONLY chance I have to survive is to successfully come closer than 32m and then, I have a fair chance to win (but he still can One Shot me every second, who cares he is missing 75% of the time if he only need ONE hit ?).
Master Pistoleer DPS is much lower than Master Rifleman DPS, there is absolutely NOTHING you can say against that, it is a fact. Even with erroneous numbers and Dream Pistols but crappy rifles, you are far above. And AP3 in PvP makes a huge difference too.
Even with your Delay Cap lowered to 3 and mine to .5, the game is still in your hands : you still can One Shot (but you aren't sure to kill me anymore). The One Shot is VERY hard to balance, because ppl not able to do so must hit you several times to kill you. Basically, even post FIX (don't assume it is a nerf please, Riflemen weren't meant to shoot 6k5 shots every second and you all know this), you can kill me instantly, or try again 3 seconds later, etc...after 3 misses, 6 seconds total. I'm not sure I can kill someone that fast (remember : I am far from being able to hit you 100% of the time, I can miss too and I miss much more often you seem to believe).
Every non Rifleman person I talked to (even some Riflemen) admitted this without any problem. For sure it should take many other stuff to balance a bit better but atm, you are NOT in a position to say you want someone to get nerfed. Really not.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Rifles shouldn't be superfast weapons but they should deal out massive damage per hit.
and Pistols should be superfast weapons that are Horribly Inaccurate and long ranges.
You're Vision will work after the patch and my vision will not.
I agree 100% that the Devs' speed changes were stupid, and were a dumb way to try to fix a broken equation. You're 100% right that they need to change the equation itself and then balance around that.
I do think that rifles have some major problems and need some fixes. Here are some ideas: get rid of 2.5 melee penalty, unnerf the T21, lower HAM costs, make startle and the other worthless skills do something, get rid of tumbling with takecover, get rid of warping mobs, make cover work like /conceal so it protects you against all mobs in the area, get rid of T21 special resource requirement, etc.
I can come up with more too ... but that's a start. I'm sure you have more ideas than I do.
But I can guarantee this -- if you guys come up with a list like that, not only will I support it but other pistoleers will too.
i think this is how it should be balanced.
1. accuracy should be a mirror image between pistol and rifleman with carb somewhere in between. im even ok with a range cap for pistols i guess if rifles get a min range cap.
2. pistols less dam + more shots. rifles more dam + less shots. carbs somewhere in between.
how it works now.
1. from anecdotal evidence , pistols are more accurate at long range than rifles are at close range.
2. rifles shoot same speed as pistols
its kinda obvious what needs to be done to me.
1. fix pistol accuracy at range in a negative fashion or fix rifle accuracy at close range in a positive fashion.
2. fix speed so pistols shoot more often for less dam and rifles shoot less often for more damage.
thats just my opinion.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
I agree 100% that the Devs' speed changes were stupid, and were a dumb way to try to fix a broken equation. You're 100% right that they need to change the equation itself and then balance around that.
I do think that rifles have some major problems and need some fixes. Here are some ideas: get rid of 2.5 melee penalty, unnerf the T21, lower HAM costs, make startle and the other worthless skills do something, get rid of tumbling with takecover, get rid of warping mobs, make cover work like /conceal so it protects you against all mobs in the area, get rid of T21 special resource requirement, etc.
I can come up with more too ... but that's a start. I'm sure you have more ideas than I do.
But I can guarantee this -- if you guys come up with a list like that, not only will I support it but other pistoleers will too.
you said that in the other post already
here were my answers
actually i like the 2.5 melee penalty i think it should remain the same. If a melee gets to me before i can bring him down he should Do mass damage on me.
Lower HAM i agree
T21 should never of been nerfed
most of those others are just bugs so yes they will be changed thanks for stating the obvious.
I dont understand why they wont focus on there own class.. its baffling.
I guess there tired of complaining about Bounty Hunters
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Well that's fine, man. So what's wrong about asking for that stuff?
ill repost this from my response on the rifleman forum ...
sure add to rifleman, Rifleman should be able to shoot from 100m while the rest shoot at the normal 64m. But wait then the devs would come and tell us that any range above 64m is nearly impossible. so therefore we have to scale the other way since 64m is the max range and we can't move range farther whats the logical conclusion? make the other weapons ranges shorter.
So technically what you are taking as a nerf is an addition to the rifleman.
would you be ok with a min range cap on rifles? that would be balance to a max range cap on pistols. pistols cant shoot over say 35m and rifles cant shoot under it. would that work for the rifleman?
i think its kinda idiotic to try and balance a speed cap with a range cap but hey whatever floats your boat.
Sure(especially if i could shoot from 100m
Stargoo wrote:
would you be ok with a min range cap on rifles? that would be balance to a max range cap on pistols. pistols cant shoot over say 35m and rifles cant shoot under it. would that work for the rifleman?
i think its kinda idiotic to try and balance a speed cap with a range cap but hey whatever floats your boat.
)Cause i could always switch to Pistol as my backup ... what? dun dun dun and the plot thickens LOL
Stargoo wrote:
what about increased accuracy at close range for rifles to compensate for the pistoleers apparent accuracy superiority at long range? is this an idea a rifleman would entertain?
no probably not we dont want to be a Slower shooting pistoleer. If we wanted Upclose accuracy we would of went pistoleer.