Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Need testers and test info for patch feedback
It's fine to disagree, you just have to have a justifiable reason for doing so in my opinion.
I also see a lot of posts in favor of keeping the new, useful, AOE shot. And no, you are accusing me of things you cannot support, so don't bother with the accusations in the first place. Personally, I use fan shot in PvE, and I PvE more than I PvP. I want a way to take out entire groups of mobs, at range, at the same time,just like IUSE To with DA2. I like having the AOE back, personally, but that's just because you asked (well, you accused, but I answered what I think your question was). If I had an emotional attachment to 4x random HAM damage single target, I would shift that love affair to kip up shot, PBsingle2, and/or I'd wait for either stopping shot to be boosted or our speed to be boosted overall, as they devs said they would. But if I did that for PvE I'd be kidding myself anyway.
Your argument is now that you lost your best action cost/damagedealt special for PvE. I disagree, here's why:
ACTION USAGE
BS2: 31 action/2x health damage "per shot" 15.5 action per unit of health damage
Old Fan Shot: 31 action/2x health damage "per shot" 15.5 action per unit of average health damage
BS3: 35 action/2.5x health damage "per shot" 14 action per unit of health damage
So. Your most action efficient shot is Body Shot 3, in terms of average health damage dealt. Wheras body shot 2 is tied with fan shot. So no, you aren't "worse off" with action using BS3 or BS2.
Overall DPS to health pool (low speed)
BS2> BS3 > Fan shot
Overall DPS to health pool (high speed)
BS3 > BS2 = Fan Shot.
So no, you also aren't worse off with damage over time either.
I'm not trying to disagree that you liked the old fan shot, certainly, it wasn't a bad special, I used it too you know? I'm just disagreeing with your reasons for wanting it changed back. There are ways to argue FOR fan shot, DPS in PvE and action cost in PvE just aren't two of them. I think the net result is still that fan shot is more useful now to the pistoleer profession as a whole, both PvE and PvP, both before mastery and at mastery (until we see what else changes).
Does everyone think I'm crazy and am strong arming this issue?
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Noules000 wrote:
As a rifleman, I admit I'd be somewhat irritated if fan shot remained a 4x damage multiplier AE shot with the same +50 accuracy the other pistoleer shots have. Master riflemen do have strafe2, with the 5x damage multiplier, but the best attack we have before master is flushing shot 2, which is a 4x damage multiplier AE shot (it does add stun though) and is presumably much less accurate than pistoleer specials. It seems a lot like our niche is getting encroached upon.
AOE is not your niche. Who said it was? Carbineer has AOE attacks of its own. So does Bounty Hunter. We were the only class without an AOE attack, and we already had two AOE (or better) attacks at Master.As usual our attacks are still way worse than yours, so you have nothing to complain about. You have weapons that have much higher DPS than ours, and low in your tree you get a 4x AOE + stun attack. At Master you get a 5x AOE attack. Firing those once per second with a T21 sounds good to me. I'll trade you straight up if you like FanShot so much.
The reason I said it was our niche is because it was the thing which separated rifle from other weapons/classes. Yes, BHs had an AE - but it was limited to 16m (LLC lightning cone). They didn't have a full-ranged AE. Yes, carbineers have AE attacks - but they generally put down lots of status effects and they don't do as much damage as rifle AEs do.
Again, my issue was if fanshot kept its massive +50 accuracy mod AND became an AE attack. +50 accuracy mod vs +5 accuracy mod is a huge difference. Pistoleers did have an AE attack already (PBAE2). And yes, I'd MUCH rather have a +50 accuracy AE attack instead of a redundant, low accuracy 4x multiplier AE.
Flushing 2 is the 4x + stun. It is at countersniping 3.
Master riflemen cannot fire strafe 2 (or almost any special) with most rifles at 1s intervals unless they are also master marksman.
My question is, if pistoleers are getting AE attacks, where are the +50 accuracy attacks for riflemen?
It's somewhat more academic for now as I've recently surrendered my rifleman skills.
If riflemen get +50 accuracy then I want a pistol at novice pistoleer level that has over 300 damage from the start before slice/powerups. I also want my KD to have stats like yours. Now, is there anything else that you want so I can say what else I want?
Noules000 wrote:
The reason I said it was our niche is because it was the thing which separated rifle from other weapons/classes. Yes, BHs had an AE - but it was limited to 16m (LLC lightning cone). They didn't have a full-ranged AE. Yes, carbineers have AE attacks - but they generally put down lots of status effects and they don't do as much damage as rifle AEs do.
Again, my issue was if fanshot kept its massive +50 accuracy mod AND became an AE attack. +50 accuracy mod vs +5 accuracy mod is a huge difference. Pistoleers did have an AE attack already (PBAE2). And yes, I'd MUCH rather have a +50 accuracy AE attack instead of a redundant, low accuracy 4x multiplier AE.
Flushing 2 is the 4x + stun. It is at countersniping 3.
Master riflemen cannot fire strafe 2 (or almost any special) with most rifles at 1s intervals unless they are also master marksman.
My question is, if pistoleers are getting AE attacks, where are the +50 accuracy attacks for riflemen?
It's somewhat more academic for now as I've recently surrendered my rifleman skills.
Jaegen88 wrote:
Does everyone think I'm crazy and am strong arming this issue?
No, you are not crazy. Anyone who crunches the numbers can see that the patch altered a skill that no one should have been using in pre-patch PvE anyway, as Bodyshot2 was equal in HAM costs and equal or better in Health damage dealt.
And of course, the new Fanshot gives Pistoleers something that is actually useful in large group PvP, and in PvP the new Fanshot has no disadvantage over the old.
Bolanos wrote:If riflemen get +50 accuracy then I want a pistol at novice pistoleer level that has over 300 damage from the start before slice/powerups. I also want my KD to have stats like yours. Now, is there anything else that you want so I can say what else I want?
Noules000 wrote:
The reason I said it was our niche is because it was the thing which separated rifle from other weapons/classes. Yes, BHs had an AE - but it was limited to 16m (LLC lightning cone). They didn't have a full-ranged AE. Yes, carbineers have AE attacks - but they generally put down lots of status effects and they don't do as much damage as rifle AEs do.
Again, my issue was if fanshot kept its massive +50 accuracy mod AND became an AE attack. +50 accuracy mod vs +5 accuracy mod is a huge difference. Pistoleers did have an AE attack already (PBAE2). And yes, I'd MUCH rather have a +50 accuracy AE attack instead of a redundant, low accuracy 4x multiplier AE.
Flushing 2 is the 4x + stun. It is at countersniping 3.
Master riflemen cannot fire strafe 2 (or almost any special) with most rifles at 1s intervals unless they are also master marksman.
My question is, if pistoleers are getting AE attacks, where are the +50 accuracy attacks for riflemen?
It's somewhat more academic for now as I've recently surrendered my rifleman skills.
Riflemen don't have KD. And sure, wouldn't bother me one bit for pistoleers to have a 300 max damage weapon with 9s delay and 2.5x melee damage multiplier.
Noules000 wrote:
Riflemen don't have KD. And sure, wouldn't bother me one bit for pistoleers to have a 300 max damage weapon with 9s delay and 2.5x melee damage multiplier.
Your 300 damage rifle's don't have 9 second delay unless they failed while being made, my friend has several in the 300 and 400 range with 6 seconds on it. And I don't even know why your argueing about delay since you shoot once a second anyways once you reach master, which is something your not suppose to do. Sure, i'll take the 2.5 damage multiplier but then I'll want to have 4x targeted ham shots at mind. Isn't that what you guys have? You want to continue this stupid arguement Noules? it's a no win scenario for both of us! If your going to complain, then complain about something wrong with the pistoleer tree, not that your pissed because we have something that rifleman don't, because that goes both ways!
Bolanos wrote:
Noules000 wrote:
Riflemen don't have KD. And sure, wouldn't bother me one bit for pistoleers to have a 300 max damage weapon with 9s delay and 2.5x melee damage multiplier.
Your 300 damage rifle's don't have 9 second delay unless they failed while being made, my friend has several in the 300 and 400 range with 6 seconds on it. And I don't even know why your argueing about delay since you shoot once a second anyways once you reach master, which is something your not suppose to do. Sure, i'll take the 2.5 damage multiplier but then I'll want to have 4x targeted ham shots at mind. Isn't that what you guys have? You want to continue this stupid arguement Noules? it's a no win scenario for both of us! If your going to complain, then complain about something wrong with the pistoleer tree, not that your pissed because we have something that rifleman don't, because that goes both ways!
330 max damage is the absolute maximum damage for a T-21 that has not been powered up or sliced.
Master rifleman do not shoot once a second with most specials. Master rifleman + master marksman can shoot once a second with a 8s or faster rifle.
Riflemen do not have a 4x targetted HAM to mind. HS3 is a 3x mind damage shot.
I'm complaining about something wrong with the rifleman tree: it's a horribly inaccurate weapon when factoring in specials. I've seen pistoleers blow off accuracy and complain about DX2 accuracy; I'm assuming this is because you aren't all that familiar with missing frequently. +50 accuracy while using specials is a HUGE advantage, and if riflemen had a decent, high-accuracy shot (random HAM or otherwise) I'd feel a lot less annoyed by the fanshot change. As I said before, if fanshot turns out to have had its accuracy adjusted to compensate for its AE nature, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.
"I'm complaining about something wrong with the rifleman tree:"
Ok Noules, but YOU ARE COMPLAINING ON THE WRONG BOARD. This is the pistoleer board, not the rifleman board.
"it's a horribly inaccurate weapon when factoring in specials."
Sounds like our DX2, so we have something in common.
"I'm assuming this is because you aren't all that familiar with missing frequently."
Till I reach master, I'll be missing half of my shots, I have seen the 'MISS' floating over the mob up to 6 times in a row on all specials, so don't tell me I'm not familiar with the missing frequently. If you have forgotten, Pistoleer's accuracy has been nerfed 3 times and after this patch people have noticed a reduction again, that makes 4! So your preaching in the wrong church on this one.
"+50 accuracy while using specials is a HUGE advantage"
Your making it sound like all of our specials have a +50, they don't, like I said, I have missed up to 6 specials in a row, back to back. When my specials hit they do less then 400 damage, when your's hit, their normally in the k range. My friend has rifle 4 on marksman, and I'm half way done with pistoleer (after I droped some lines to get ranger), he was outdamaging me, and it looks like he was hitting more often them me as well.
"if fanshot turns out to have had its accuracy adjusted to compensate for its AE nature, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue. "
So not only do rifleman want us to have a range of 32(?) max but now you want us to be nerfed on accuracy again for the 5th time in a row? What's next? would you like our broken DX2 to shoot water instead of acid? Cause the miner's might complain that we're taking business away from them since we can shoot water instead of mining for it. Or perhaps you'll like to take away our bleed shot? because that should be for rifleman only? Oh wait, remove prone, cause we're pistoleer's, not snipers. Oh, how could I forget, the FWG5, although not pistoleer's special weapon and anyone can preatty much use it, should be nerfed since it can break the 200 damage using krate and powerups and slice. When will you be satisfied Noules? Will you be satisfied once you see us asking for, instead of twirling guns, we ask for animations of us taking our shoes off and throwing them at our target?
Honestly Noules, give us a break, Pistoleer's FINALLY get a change that isn't a nerf, and your all over us like if it's the end of the world. meanwhile you have BH and Commando's doing one shot kills. did you forget that the 75% reduction of PvP damage was in place to end one shot kills and these two professions are the only two that can do one shot kills in PvP. Why aren't you yelling at SOE for contradicting themselves? With the changes the riflemen profession are asking on their weapon it will allow them to do one shot kills as well, I don't see you complaining here either about that contradiction. Do you not believe that you do not have the most powerful special in PvP, a mind shot, something that can NOT be healed, our specials CAN be healed! You have stat changes, we don't. You complain about not having defenses, you kill most of the mobs before they reach you, we complain because our defenses like dodge get us killed because it stops us while we're trying to run away. And your yelling at us when we finally get something remotely decent for half of the pistoleer players?
I'm tired, I'm not even gonna bother answering you anymore. If you want to complain about something that doesnt work with rifleman, your on the wrong board. that's the final say on my end, I don't care anymore.
DX2 AR works. It just suffers from the same problem every other AR >0 weapon suffers from (including rifles) when going up against vulnerable targets.
When has pistoleer accuracy been nerfed?
As I said already, I'm not a rifleman any more, so I don't have any personal agenda here.
The reason I am stating this on this board and in this thread specifically is because the change that occurred, which I think is not a good change, is to a pistoleer special. This thread addresses the change made to fanshot; this is my response to that change. There are a number of issues that pistoleers had, but I don't think adding an AE attack really resolves any of those, and it's annoying to those of us who felt the AE damage nature of rifles was what compensated for our poor accuracy, high mind HAM costs, and weakness to melee.
hi jaegen, i love the new fanshot for both pve and pvp ( and would be devastated if they changed it back), however after soloing thousands of creatures / npc's of different sizes and strenghts my practical experiences dont correspond to your mathematical explanation of how body shot 2 or 3 is more cost effective regarding action bar. i am not trying to claim your calculations are incorrect but almost always to kill any given creature i would use half the amount of my action bar using the old fan shot compared to bodyshot 2 or 3.
ACTION USAGE
BS2: 31 action/2x health damage "per shot" 15.5 action per unit of health damage
Old Fan Shot: 31 action/2x health damage "per shot" 15.5 action per unit of average health damage
BS3: 35 action/2.5x health damage "per shot" 14 action per unit of health damage
So. Your most action efficient shot is Body Shot 3, in terms of average health damage dealt. Wheras body shot 2 is tied with fan shot. So no, you aren't "worse off" with action using BS3 or BS2.