Pistoleer Archive

so are riflemen thinking the speed equation isnt borked? or are they thinking it is messed up but balanced by the screwed up accuracy system?

It really depends.

First off, I am of the belief that there are offensive classes and defensive classes. The pistoleer is more of the defensive class in terms of the ranged professions. They can take damage very well but arent nearly as good as dealing it. Riflemen are more of an offensive class better at dealing damge vs taking it. Considering this is how it is in pretty much every MMORPG out there, there is very little that is going to sway that opinion. This is also what constitutes balance. Measuring a classes weakness's vs its strengths. So yes, in reguard to top end weapons, the speed system works pretty well overall. This is evidenced by the fact that Rifle has mor speed modifiers than both carbine and pistol which would lead to a greater "haste" even if the weapons themselves pumped out similar DPS's. No one has produced any evidence to the contrary, so I'm working off this assumption. Additionally, there's obviously alot of evidence to support my theory so until someone can prove otherwise, I'm sticking with it.

Theres going to be some disagreements with this, but for the most part we are going to have to agree to diagree.

The main issue with the speed system is that its wheels start falling off at very high speeds. There are definately issues with it. Riflemen breaking 95 speed is a serious problem, along with other problems with 90 speed and varying delayed weapons. The funny thing is all you pistoleers keep saying, "The system is broken, its needs fixed." thinking that you are going to get an upgrade. Its not going to happen. In reality you guys are screaming for to nerf yourselves. While I'll admidt problems with the current system in regaurds to rifle, theres a far greater issue at hand. Speed stacking. Samra posted something to the effect of spamming a 1k last ditch (smuggler move) at 1 second based of the speed stacking. That isnt right. More than likely, again evidenced by the 74 (I think that was it) speed granted through pistoleer, that the speed caps were thought out properly, but they didnt consider the loophole. That is that people would pick up additional lines (BH pistol for example) in order to circumvent what they had in place. I wouldnt at all be surprised if, in the future, they capped certain professions specials by speed so that in effect, last ditch would have a speed cap at whatever it is at marksman and that pistol/BH speed wouldnt stack with it. On top of that, the BH speed would be reclassified (I believe they were supposed to hit the speed cap for carbines and pistols based on the 80 speed they are given in their lines) as a BH pistol speed so that it wont stack with pistol speed. So, in reality, it isnt the rifleman getting a HUGE nerf, its you guys.

As the proposed linear "haste system" while that works better in terms of evening out the dps per speed (The exponential increases granted as speed goes up), it opens up a whole other can of worms. In order to maintain current balance, you guys are essentially asking for rifleman to be granted somewhere in the neighborhood of 500-800 7.5 T21's (numbers based on .5 to 3 second proposal). On top of that if they use a linear system akin to the EQ system, damage gets even greater on the T21 as it will never hit the 3 second cap. What this would do is front load combat to make the first shot mean everything putting pistoleers at even a greater disadvantage than you say you are at now.

So, if you are asking if I agree that the speed system is currently boinked, well then yes it is. If you are trying to use the speed system as an example to profession balance, than no, everything seems to be about even.

Tilen
Scylla

Tilen,

I don't have time to respond to your entire post, but you're right that when we bring up making the speed equation linear, we AREN'T trying to nerf riflemen and are fully aware that it will have consequences for ourselves too.

We're doing this because we want to game to work correctly, not because we want to be uber 1337 d00ds. Ithink you understand this, based on our conversations.

If so, I would appreciate it if you could bring a similar perspective to the Rifleman forum. Right now your Correspondent seems to be completely concerned about pushing through every uber change he can for his class instead of trying to work out some sense of balance.

I know that our opinions differ, and that is fine ... maybe your list of rifle changes wouldn't be the ones I think are best. But I have the feeling that you could come up with some reasonable ones based on your idea of balance, despite your post voting "yes" for all of Aldeon's changes and your post suggesting that you keep the 2.5 melee penalty has a bargaining stick vis-a-vis pistoleers (?!?)

Samra, thats fine. We've had this conversation already. I dont think I said anything different here than I said to you the other night. We have some differences of opinion that I dont think either of could change each others minds unless a dev came and said, "Its supposed to be like this.....". So no need to go through an entire post (**edit**, we should of logged our conversation and just put it up....would of been easier) to say the same things unless u really want to for the purposes of opening conversation some more.

I will post something on the rifleman boards akin to balance.

And hey, At least I posted alot of my yes's with reservations

Tilen

Raloorn ... this is what I think. We should shoot faster than a rifle, for a weaker amount of damage per shot. This way you try to take us down with a few hard but slow shots, and we try to take you down with a bunch of weaker shots. I think that's the idea behind our classes to begin with.

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Philosopher1976 wrote:
Raloorn ... this is what I think. We should shoot faster than a rifle, for a weaker amount of damage per shot. This way you try to take us down with a few hard but slow shots, and we try to take you down with a bunch of weaker shots. I think that's the idea behind our classes to begin with.

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you know whats funny is i AGREE with you that you should shoot faster ... the problem lies is that We the rifleman who have been billed as Long Distance damage dealers, You pistoleers can still shoot as accurate as we riflemen can at long distances.

You can have the Speed but we can't have the distance. How is that fair?

Well then maybe the solution is adjusting accuracy. Why not ask to double rifle's accuracy?

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Philosopher1976 wrote:
Well then maybe the solution is adjusting accuracy. Why not ask to double rifle's accuracy?

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because that still doesn't do anything about pistoleers shooting faster then us and at the same range as us.

I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY JUST WONT ASK FOR ACCURACY FIX WHY BE VINDICTIVE AND ASK FOR OURS TO BE CHANGED..

CAPS CUZ IM FRUSTRATED AND THESE RIFLEMAN ARE MORONS

But then you'll hit harder than us at the same range ... so it will even out. If it doesn't, then they need to increase the damage on the T21 back again, or increase other rifles too, so it does. Rifles shouldn't be superfast weapons but they should deal out massive damage per hit.

so the rifleman argument is yes the speed equation falls apart at high + mods but thats ok because you have the perception that it balances you? i dont know what i think about that. lemme mull it over a bit.

I think Rifleman never used Dx2 at 60 meters either

The speed equation is broke ill admit that. The problem is that the devs attempted and failedtobalanced around that broken equation. The best thing that should be done is to change the speed equation and then rebalanceeverything around it. Just making a new speed equation will not balance everything alone....

I think almost everyone will find that acceptable, the problem is that will the devs do that? I dought it but its good to look at it as an option.What we realisticly need to work on is thebroken system =(...

Most pistoliers dont like the balancing that the rifleman have proposed so what do you guys think should be done? Just a reminder that you need to include dmg, speed, the types of accuracy (running, short, long and speical's accuracy bonuses), HAM cost and HAM type. There may be factors to include such as rifleman 2.5 dmg penalty to melee or the pistols can augment their skills with smuggler/BH but thats up to you on seeing if they are important or not. BTW if you think rifleman should be only long range and non kitable then we need HIGH DPS to kill the mob before he gets to melee range. You need to consider PvE issues as well as PvP... I hope to here some suggestions. =)