Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The Rifleman Correspondent Wants to Kite Us
Oh yeah, and your correspondent (no offense, but it sounds like he just wants pistoleers to be God -_-) keeps on saying "wear armor, our FWG5s have no AP, wah wah wah". Well GUESS FREAING WHAT!?!?!? Wearing armor and being a rifleman is suicide. Why? Because rifleman need high focus and willpower. Without it we kill ourselves. If we equip armor we'll be healing our mind 5 points every 3-5 seconds, since our willpower (or focus, forget which one it was) will be down to 20-something instead of 500-something. So quit using that argument.
Just as a note, the reason your focus and willpower are so low is because you're equipping a helmet, which is useless against a Pistoleer who will be using BS2. In fact, the only reason to equip a heal for a rifleman is against another rifleman or against a BH.
And please don't add Pistoleer/BHs to the comparison. There are tons of us who are not, and discussing Eye Shot users is far more of a BH/Rifleman discussion than a Pistoleer/Rifleman discussion.
Balance. we all want it right?
say you have a scale. On one side is pistol range and the other rifle range.
most folks agree rifles should shoot from further out. huzzah. I agree whole heartedly. But last i heard there was somehting in the SWG engin that prevents ranges exceeding 64 meters.
Hmmmm
So we want balance. We cannot add to the rifle side of the scale.
So you must subtract from the pistol side.
seems logical to me . . .
I think there is nothing wrong with asking for rifles to get more accuracy. I also have no problem with you saying that rifles should be more accurate than pistols at long range.
I have a problem with your correspondent asking for HARD CAPS that make it impossible for me to fire at him while he runs backward killing me with a CDEF.
I also think the idea that we should all "miss wildly" outside of a 20m range to not only to be highly unbalancing but also annoying and not fun. Given server lag, that just means that everyone will be "missing wildly" ... except for the sniper who sets up his initial shot, gets off a mindshot2, and runs away. If you want an accuracy bonus at long range, fine. If you want to be invincible at long range, forget it. I have to have some way of either closing the gap or defending myself or else you'll just kite me.
I haven't read through all the responses, but I have a quick question:
Aren't posts on the Correspondent Forum supposed to be confidential?
I always assumed that they were, but please let me know. The Rifleman Correspondent seems to have cut and paste Jaegen's posts from the forum.
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AldeonAvardulin Rifleman Correspondent
Until I am proved wrong I will not stop fighting for range mods to be adjusted so that we are masters of long range.
Prove me wrong, thats all it takes.
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"Prove me wrong" what kind of idiocy is that? Burden is on the person making the assertion in proving his case.
If you state that "pistol styles have so much bonus accuracy", *Y*O*U* need to provide the data, not somebody else.
You want proof, on 100,000+ shots at 64m range (you read that right,8 weeks worth of data), my miss rate is 58%.
Since I don't play rifleman nor care to, let's see you, the rifle correspondent, provide data on your accuracy from 64m, 30m, and 15m.
First question, do you have data that indicate unbalanceness (if that's a word) for pistol accuracy at max range? Sorry, pure accuracy number doesn't mean jack. Balance imply comparision.
Really, what the question boil down to is "is the accuracy formula" broken? Yes, I seen Noules data. However, my analysis of his data point to a different conclusion than his, namely the data are inconclusive. I had been logging for weeks now, hoping to get 1 million data points for better analysis.
If Noules formula is correct (eg the formula is base + special - range), then is formula is broken and must be fixed. The correct formula should be ( (base + special) * (range)). The problem with the first formula is the special modifier bypass the range so it's just as effective as long range as ideal range. The second formula will have the range negatively affect the special modifier, the way it should be. But since we don't have access to the developer formula and since current data are not enough to draw conclusion, the best we can do is a call for developer to investigate the accuracy formula.
A correspondent calling for a nerf with inadequate data is just plain nut. Furthermore, to propose "solution" without understand the problem just lead to bad noise.
Put it another way, if the accuracy formula is of the form (range modifier) * (base + special + etc), there's no need for any "range cap" since the range modifier already take range into account.
If the accuracy formula is of the form base + special - range + etc, then rather than calling for nerf, just call for a fix to the real problem--the accuracy formula.
Just ran the tests on headshot3 and strafe2 - looks like rifle specials accuracy is quite low. There's a possibility that the shooter in 'running in place' mode affected specials accuracy, so that's something I'll have to investigate, but my preliminary numbers is that strafe 2 has a -10 accuracy mod and headshot 3 has a +5 accuracy mod (compared to +50 for BS1/2/3, DT/SS/FS, +40 kip-up).
Here is a question, i want you to tell me are pistols suposed to begood at long ranges? If so then the simple solution is to extend riflemans range inward so you can keep your long range accuracy...
I know you guys are saying where is the proof but you ALLknow that you have a LARGER optimum range than rifles have so there is not balance atm that there should be.That being said i think the cap idea is stupid.Theproblem is your long range accuracy is higher than what it should be, the point isthat pistols are not suposed to be a LONG range weapon, rifles are...
Im all for lowering riflemans ability to hit while moving, but increasing our ability to hit while standing still... So now that we cant kite you... why cant we have an advantage at range? I have a solution that will allow you to keep your accuracy...Rifles should have a range of 100m but after 64m can only fire at range while using cover.. that removes the ability to kite at all even if we wanted too... Just an idea.
I thought we were trying to make the classes different? Isnt that why people want to slow rifles down at master? Following that line of thoughtwhy not make long range for rifleman and short range for pistoliers like it says in the class discriptions? It should be consistant... So keep the way it works now with rifles fast but limited by our HAM costs or give us long range superiority and slow us down with a dmg bonus to compinsate our speed loss.
AND to make it so if we cant shoot after 30m...they they cant shoot before it..
I don't have anything constructive to add.... but this has got to qualify for best thread title ever.
Philosopher1976 wrote:Here's what I don't understand.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the rifleman correspondent is right and we are more accurate than they are. Why does this mean that we should be unable to fire outside of 35m or that they should be able to kite us? It just means that they need an accuracy boost.
I think both of the things the riflemen mention (speed and accuracy) are red herrings. There is no connection between being more/less accurate and needing to kite other professions. Just ask for an accuracy boost and that solves the problem.
There are two distinct issues regarding accuracy here:
First is the performance relative to another class, e.g. are pistoleers more accurate at range X than rifleman?
Second is the absolute performance, e.g. rifleman accuracy at range X is Y%.
We can address the first issue by either upping rifleman accuracy or lowering pistol accuracy (through a number of means, actually) but the second issue is not 'relative', and might require a specific change, rather than one of several choices. Due to defense being relatively difficult to get compared to accuracy, lowering overall accuracy might be necessary (for PvP at least). One better solution might be to give everyone a higher inherent ranged defense mod, since that's more PvP oriented.
The problem with a lot of the debate around here is its too centered on hurting other classes to benefit our own. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Rifleman may have issues, and I completely agree that Rifleman range needs to be increased. But your arguments aren't holding much water.
When I'm at range, I miss at least 50-60% of my shots and have a penalty to hit. even at 32m I'm missing near 25%....But I should still have the option to take those shots.
Riflemen should not be kiting anything. You show me the last time you saw a guy running and firing with a rifle. Rifles are accuracy weapons, kneeling, standing still or laying prone are the bread and butter and accuracy bonuses to the long distance shots give you a great equalizer.
What it all comes down to is that too many of us look at 1 on 1 battles are the mark of our professions power. With PvP the way it is now, you can't look that way. It's a rock paper scissors battle on a bigger scale. The Pistoleer when they get in close is going to beat the rifleman etc etc.
I agree with a few of the Rifle Correspondents points but I think his efforts should be focused on fixing his own class and not trying to gimp other classes.
Raise the Rifle distance, allow it to truly reflect what a powerful weapon it is.
Fix the Rifle specials so they do what is intended. I should have some sort of delay in finding somebody sniping at me from distance.
Understand that each class has built in strengths and weaknesses. Rifle's weakness should be the lack of mobility that they allow that offsets the potential damage their weapons can do.
And for the love of Pete, this whole "They have this waa waa" has to stop in all professions.