Pistoleer Archive

You're going WAYYY to deep man. Yeah what you are proposing could be done, but it just isnt logical. Balance is going to be determined on the basis of dps, ability to take damage, accuracy....etc. I dont think this game, or really any other, could be designed around the ideas proposing. It would be a nightmare to balance, plain and simple. You yourself said we over estimate these devs too much and you want to put them in charge of balancing under the system you propsed. This game wouldnt be balance for 2-3 years at a bare minimum.

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Scylla

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oaktree68 wrote:
OK, I've read all the responses so far and would like the opportunity to respond. I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong. I just want to describe the rifleman class as some of you are putting it.

- No 2.5x melee modifier
- The same accuracy mods across the board.
- Rifles begin to shoot at about 5 seconds a shot with the T21 (assuming rifle is put to pistol dps). The other instance is we all have the exact same weapons except for name (T21 rifle would have the same stats as the DX2).

Now, this seems to be a very homoginized play style. Everybody is exactly the same. I think that leads to very bland playing expierence. For people from other MMORPG's imagine if all the classes exacted the same. They all pumped out the same DPS. They all tanked exactly the same. Casters were limited on the spells but could take damage as well as the melee classes. I'm sure a game like that would do extremely well, dont you?

Balance is not defined in terms of DPS. Just like speed is a function of DPS, DPS is a function of balance. Some of you said that you thought dps should be even, so playstyle would be factor. Well, I contend that it is. Currently a pistol has very few drawbacks. You have no melee penalties. You have greater accuracy. You can spam specials until your char is blue in the face. But your dps is low. That is the playstyle u choose. You chose to be a more defensive class that has greater accuracy with better HAM management. My friends thats a playstyle. Rifleman choose higher dps but less accuracy, a melee damage modifier, and poor HAM management. They choose those things for the higher DPS. That is a playstyle. If you think that your choice of class in not what you desired, I urge you to reconsider.

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Scylla

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The reason every class should have the same DPS but with their weakness's and strengths unlike the other class's, like I posted, is because if you don't have that, then you'll have what you have right now, everyone running to Commando and BH to be one shot killing machines. What fun is the game when 70% of the combat force in the server are Commando/Bounty Hunters?

For the person who mentioned about me smoking something. No, I'm not, 2.5x should be on, since you do well over 1k damage a shot, you'll be taking out MOST mobs in PvE, which is what this game is revolved around, in one to three shots. If each shot hits, you'll take it down before it starts running at you, and yes, I use to have rifle and pistol skills like I mentioned before so I do know what I'm talking about. Yes, I also gave up my rifle skills for Ranger, so if there is a bug with Cover right now, I'm sorry, perhaps you should be posting on your board to have it fixed instead of yelling at me for something I have nothing to deal with.

And this goes for everyone, please remember, the majority of people who play this game do so in PvE, not PvP. Everyone talks about, including myself, PvP to compare professions, but remember, PvE is the bulk of the game and is what we should be looking at for balance right now. Once PvE is balanced, then we should look into PvP, but they must be kept seperate from each other or else you'll have nothing but conflict and bad nerf's, example, 30 second delay on knock down. Just try to remember that first please. When you say reduce range on pistol's to 32, remember, your also screwing over the PvE people, and remember, with the bugs out there, we have gnorts that can melee you from 32 meter's out! So let's give the nerfing a break and come up with some real and productive idea's huh, what do you say?

Bolanos, I agree, lets balance PvE first and then worry about PvP. So discounting the reasoning behind your first post (PvP laden) explain to me how u balance the classes with DPS the same. You saw the only way I can think of how its done. Very bland, very boring. So, how do you do it?

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Scylla

IMO pistol dps vs single targets should be higher than rifle's. Riflemen can't be balanced solely looking at the Sniping Accuracy tree. Our strength lies in numbers.

I agree that DPS should be even. Riflemen should do HIGH damage at LOW speeds and Pistoleers should do LOW damage at HIGH speeds. The 2.5 melee mod is ridiculous IMO. Why penalize them more? Isn't it something like a -60 mod @ 0m?

However, at the moment, Riflemen attack a non-healable pool.Which is good for them.

As an example:

I'm a Master Doctor/Pistoleer (3/2/4/2) and I can buff my Health/Action and their substats to about 2k and I will STILL get smacked by a rifleman because I can't heal the mind. Yes I can heal myself constantly, but that uses the mind aslo! (Btw i'm a Zabrack 900 mind/500 focus/800 willpower and a stim-D usesabout70mind) If i get hit with full autotwice I'm done.

I'm not saying nerf Riflemen. I just think that attacking a pool that can't be healed isn't a fair way of making things even. DPS should be adjusted and HAM costs should be lowered. Just my two cents.

:redies himself for the flames.

If you're talking about maximum, or ideal DPS then my answer is no, they should not be the same. If you're talking about real DPS then my answer is yes, they should be rougly the same.

The difference between the two is that maximum DPS assumes an ideal situation. It is the target standing at ideal range and taking hits without complaint. Real DPS factors in the environment. The real DPS on a rifle is highly situational, it is relatively easy tothwart it'sideal situation, and the means for twarting it are freely available to all players and NPCs. This foil is movement towards the rifle user. To the best of my knowledge there is no situation where it is flat out bad to be using a pistol (if there is that should be changed). At 10m it isnot goodto be using a pistol verses a flamethrower, but it's worse to be using a rifle. At 60m it isnot goodto be using a pistol verses a rifle, but it is worse to be using a sword. Pistol is never the worst case scenario.The situational DPS on a pistol will fluctuate based on the environment, but not wildly. It is a very even and reliable weapon whereas the rifle is a gambler's weapon. I see the rifle as trading reliability for situational damage.

In it's elementa rifleshould do more ideal DPS than a pistol in it's element because a pistol is never completely out of it's element. Over the entire life of a pistol user, once the frequency of ideal situations is factored in, it should do roughly the same damage as a rifle over it's entire life.

I hope I explained my reasoning clearly enough.

DPS should not be even, and focusing only on DPS as a means of balancing the classes seems to me like the hallmark of an uncreative mind. As a pistoleer I'm in favor of giving rifleman more DPS but giving us a higher DOT. which balances out nicely, that would make rifleman better in PVP and pistoleers better in PVE. As for the mind thing, you hit the mind pool so your cost comes from the mind pool, seems fair to me (or as fair as one can have considering that mind is non healable), I hit a healable (mostly)pool so thusly my special cost can be healed (all except for mind cost which is pretty low). I think those differences their make for wildly diffrent play styles, which allows you to decided wether you want quick and decisve combat, with a fair amount of downtime afterwards, or a sustained level of intensity with few if any breaks.

As for specific balancing issuies, yea the 2.5 meele thing sucks, but hey you stillhave the ability to one shot people even now after the 75% PVP damage nerf. High HAM cost is made up by the fact you don't shoot as often, IE: 3 times HAM cost because you shoot 1/3 as often. It wouldn't be a problem but people are almost at cap (95 out of 100)for speed with their rifles, so their trying to spam their moves and dying from the drain. In PVE a rifle man wins or losses the fight based on the first three shots, for which speed doesn't matter, since the mob won't react till after the third. In PVP a rifleman wins or lossesin the first or second shot, since he does so much damage to an unhealable pool, and no class perhaps other than the comando can kill someone in less shots. I think rifleman will be fine with a speed cap of 3 and a much higher DPS (perhaphs not a one shot kill, but certainly a two hit kill).

You asked for my opion and I gave, this being my opion I'm probably wrong

You're right about mind damage being huge... when they made damage 1/4 in pvp they really screwed things up.. it's now literally impossible for a pistoleer without an attack targetting the mind to kill a master rifleman/mastermedic... I've seen it.. the rifleman just fires a bleed and starts healing himself.. with the miniscule damage done by the pistol and the 1/4 penalty the rifleman/master medic combo just has to land one mindshot2 and sit back. However.. ifa rifleman has no medical skills he'll probably lose to the pistoleer if the pistoleer is smart enough to keep him moving (and yeah.. I think it's right that riflemen can't shoot wellwhen moving). I myself (I'm a master rifleman, quickdraw, rogue, 3/2/0/0 CH for the graul mauler ~ found it to be a good balance for pvp, and pve) have a panic shot, equip rifle, headshot3, headshot3 macro which should be deadly once the panic shot fix on test hits live

I used to think that rifleman/pistoleer dps was pretty balanced because rifleman specials sucked the mind dry.. but really pistoleer dps sucks.. pistol specials in the upper half of the pistoleer tree should be doing 50% more damage at least if they're not going to add in debuff effects, and a 6.5x damage AE at master wouldn't be overpowering (since the highest pistol is only light armor piercing which really keeps dps low in high end pve)... it's the novice pistoleer/bh pistol 4 combos that are the super pistol users and stuck in the mind of most riflemen.It would be great if they were to change the speed modifiers on the right side to +8 in the pistoleer tree.. and move 20 pistol speed in the bh pistol tree into the bh master box... if they did that, and upgraded the damage of high end pistoleer specials then the best pistol users would always have to bemaster pistoleers... seems like common sense.

I think DPS should be equal. Each class has different advantages that make them unique.

Pros:

Rifleman: Mind Damage, High AP, Front loaded damage

Pistoleer: Versitile at different ranges, lower melee penalty, small mind use in specials

Cons:

Rifleman: Takes mind to shoot, melee penalty

Pistoleer: Low AP, Hits easily healable pool, low AP

To be brief, yes DPS should be even between rifle and pistol, and yes they should remove the melee multiplier from rifles(what, do I shoot by leading with my chin or something?).