Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleers can we get behind these proposals and try and help another class?
Jaegen88 wrote:
I would. But #1 on their goof priority list is getting pistoleers nerfed because they dont understand they have better accuracy at range. They dont understand how to use ideal range, they dont understand they are a long range support fire profession that doesnt run around and shoot from the hip, but when they DO set up ideal range, they have better accuracy than pistols..period.
They also want reduced HAM costs, and pre-nerf T21s, and to take less melee damage, and to have better defense when under Cover. Hm, more damage, more defense, less HAM cost, nerf pistoleers, wow, yeah, I should really get behind that. How about Learn how to play your profession, and stop making us teach you. Once that's accomplished, sure. I've said time and time again, I'd be more than happy to help run test and make suggestions, bump posts, whatever..but no one was interested in that. They want..as you see, to nerf their opponents and get God mode activated.
I always mention carbineers and now am mentioning polearms in posts, they need help. Rifleman? Well, when their correspondent learns how to utilize ideal range and stops asking for nerfs to the competition...maybe.
The problem isn't that riflemen don't know how to use ideal range. It's that they have a very small ideal range window. I'm a Master Marksman. I use a laser rifle and an FWG5. Here are the stats (going for memory so they may be slightly off). Rifle -70@ 0m, -50@ 64m, and +21 @ 60m. Pistol +0 @ 0m, -70 @ 64m, and +15 @ 15m.
Yes the rifle is slightly better at long range than the pistol. The difference is 20 points. The difference is 50 points in favor of the pistol at minimum range. Do a graph. The pistol changes at about 1.17 per meter from ideal. This is on both sides, above and below, ideal. The rifle is about the same going from ideal to minimum. Everything so far is about even. No problem. The difference is between the ideal and max. You have a 71 point difference for 4m (12ft). That comes to over -17/meter. Ten times accuracy differnce as the pistol has or the rifle has between min and ideal. This causes a small ideal window.
I'd proposed in a couple of different threads a change. Give a weapon only an ideal range stat and the a mod per 10m from ideal. The pistol in this example pretty much already has this. So if you looked at the pistol using my propsed system you would see the following stats. Ideal +15@ 15m. -12 per 10m. Each weapon would have a different mod per 10m. Higher end weapons would of course have a lower penalty than low end weapons. This would even out the ideal window and the only real effect on rifles is that their max penalty would look more the a pistols min range penalty.
Your issue of spraysticks. I have one and use it at times. However I've found it smarter to switch to my pistol for the following reasons. Creature warping.A major issue for all combat classes which is why I posted on this forum a while back asking for help with it. If I'm prone firing a rifle (common for rifleman to help with the movement accuracy mods) and the creature warps I'm pretty much guaranteed an incap before I can respond. You are looking at a 2.5X for the rifle and I believe a 2X for being prone.
When I'm kiting at close range I start off with the pistol. Just in case any of the MOB's friends warp while kiting. The spraystick is still a rifle so the 2.5X multiplier applies. If I kite for about 5 seconds without any warping it's usually safe soI'll usually switch to the spraystick for autoattack. I equip the pistol when leaving towns for the same reason. All the gang members outside instant aggro on me (-5k faction) so it's safer to equip the pistol at first. I'm not complaining about the 2.5X melee mod for rifleman. It makes some sense to me. Though I could argue that a rifle is better able to defend against a sword than a pistol it is also larger, heavier, and bulkier slowing my defensive movement.
The issue of heavy weapons doing melee damage is a bug. If you look at the combat que you will see that they "swing" at their target. This has been a bug before even the commandos were, finally, fixed. When they fixed them they didn't correct this issue. There is no reason a ranged weapon should do melee damage. Unless someone can tell me how a person is suppose to swing a flamethrower at someone 16m away.
It seems you and Aldeon have a feud going. Don't let your personal animosity make you generalize all rifleman. Right now all the combat classes (I'll leave the non-combat classes for another thread) need lots of work. I can't speak for pistoleer since I'm not one. I can only speak from my view as a novice rifleman. We have lots of skills that are of very little use, no use, or flat out don't work. I know carbineers are in the same boat and assume so are you guys.
It seems the Devs keep trying to balance for PvP and end up borking things for PvE. I've looked at the recent poll and it shows a much larger PvE interest. Balance for this first. Then tweak PvP as needed. The KD, status change timer, etc were done because of PvP. What it did was make a large number of skills in the elite ranged combat classes mostly worthless for PvE which is what the majority of people do.
A suggestion. All the correspondents have or are getting terminals to gain XP on test center. How about asking if you can earn XP in other professions the same way with the corresponding correspondents approval or something. This would let you, Aldeon, and the Carbineer correspondent to swap roles. You play the rifleman for a bit, let Aldeon try out Pistoleer. And DON'T just do it as Masters. Test it out as novices also. Set all three of you as 1/1/1/1 and do some testing. The majority of your community isn't at Master level so your tests are skewed towards a minority of your community. Test at all levels. Maybe both of you will start to see what the other is trying to say. Compare notes from playing the same thing. Find the errors, bugs, underpowered skills, overpowered skill, etc and work *gasp*together to get things done.
The three of you, each representing one of the elite ranged combat classes would have more success getting things done working together. I don't know how this feud started and in all honesty I don't really care. It really shouldn't have been brought to the boards and escalated the way it has. I have few doubts I'll be flamed some by pistoleers because they see this as an attack on Jaegen or by the rifleman that will see it as an attack on Aldeon. It's neither. It's just my opinion that it is time for you two stop and try to work together. Yes you will have disagreements. That's natural. But the name calling and misrepresentations on both sides should stop. Otherwise you aren't representing your communities the way you should. It almost seems the Pistol and Rifle boards are turning into an "Us vs Them".
Sorry for the long post but I just had some things to say.
Ok, first thing I would like you to understand is that Pistoleer is a often Dabbled Profession, just because 2 other professions (BH and Smuggler) are using pistols too. This put Pistoleers in a really different situation.
Riflemen are the only Rifle users so far, this implied many bugs and many advantages that need a fix, like Speed Mods. The Speed Mods in your tree is out of any sense, 95 speed is just the reason why you're "overpowered" while being "broken". Yes a Master Rifleman is too powerfull but it is also true than a Novice Rifleman isn't much better than a novice Pistoleer (still the Mind pool thing that makes big difference).
Imho, they should leave the dly cap as it is but place caps to weapons, like 85 for pistols, 75 for Carbines and 65 for Rifles. Yes I know, you don't understand why a Pistol can get 85% while a Rifle only get 65...the answer is in the dmg output, you riflemen are doing 5 times our best move's dmg. This will leave you more powerfull than us overall but we'll be a bit above at close distance (this is what we need).
OF COURSE THINGS MUST BE TUNED ACCORDINGLY, we never meant you to be useless, for sure...but us being faster than you without any MORE dmg penalty isn't a big thing to require when your DPS is 5 times ours (and still aimed toward MIND pool).
You are stating your moves using mind pool is a drawback...ok, I hope you are kidding on this one, frankly. You are able to incap 3 ppl before not being able to use Special for 20 seconds (FYI, Mind pool is regenering MUCH faster than other pools). Do you really know Pistoleers have NO CHANCE to win 1 vs 1 against someone that can one Shot them aiming the Mind Pool ? Yes you can miss 4 times and only hit the 5th one (you're really unlucky, the general REAL rate is closer than hit 2/3 tries) but at Master speed it means 5 seconds, in 5 seconds, with my AP1 pistol I can hit you for a MAXIMUM of 125x5 (I mean, I WON'T be able to make anything more, this is my "dream attack", something that will NEVER happen) in RANDOM HAM ! I hit each time (blessed, I'm blessed) for full dmg (Jesus is jealous now, I'm the new son of god)...no kidding, you don't understand the game as it is : our best AP is AP1 and we can hit at a max pvp dmg for 250 (with 50% acid resist, it means 125).
T21 is AP3 and you'll be able to hit for 2K5 in pvp every 3 secods after ****nerf**** (fixing someone obviously overpowered isn't a nerf, it's called a fix).
Yes you can argue you don't hit each time...I'll argue that you're still able too, so you have a chance to. This is 100 times more than what we have, so don't call for any nerf on us, please.
To reply your reply, Scout Blaster and Laser Rifle are comparable, really ? What AP on Laser Rifle ? Scout Blaster is 0...don't think you should compare those 2 ones, it won't please you.
I prefer compare Master because it is the GOAL. I can't compare Novices, they're much too weak to compare btw, about the exact same thing. Don't even try to tell me a Novice Pistoleer is better than a novec Rifleman. Remember, you aim Mind Pool, this is currently THE key of any pvp fight. The PvE is surelly a bit different and should tie the score much closely.
For the mind pool, you find it FAIR ???? You kidding ? I've been incap in EXACTLY 0.00001 second for 1500 dmg in my mind pool...you find it FAIR ? Wow, I can hit you in the chest for 5k then ? here it is fair. My full buffed Mind Pool is 750, your full buffed Health pool is 2500. When I'll be able to One Shot for 5k in targetted HEALTH bar, that will be fair and trust me, I won't mind paying the third, even 99% of my Health bar for that.
ATM, I am a moving target as long as I don't know what my target resists are. You are NOT affected by this since you have AP3, this makes also a HUGE difference.
Yes, Rifle should be slow with higher dmg than pistol. ATM, their are as fast with 6 times pistol dmg, period. Oh no, not period yet : they also have AP3, now period.
This I TOTALLY agree : I shouldn't stand the tinier chance to kill you above 32m, ok...only when they'll implement Line Of Sight to give me a tiny chance to come closer. There are 5% of chance for me to begin fight in my prefered range, you have 95% of chance. Clearly unfair, so you shouldn't be able to hit me thru hills, and it will become much more fair. you can't have all distance advantages without losing anything, it's impossible.
In the current state, Rifleman (Master) is clearly overall overpowered when compared to Pistoleers, Carbineers and all melee classes. you can argue whatever you want, Master Rifleman is much too powerfull. They are like BH and above Commandos.
I don't want anything to be nerfed (but speed mods) but I surelly won't accept a clearly overpowered Profession calling to nerf a weaker profession.
Waste,
You make nothing but sense, I'm not sure you'll find much opposition here on the majority of your 2 posts. There are other...posters...that don't hold such a balanced view.
When I logged into the corr forum and saw "Subject: Range Mods - Aldeon"> Change ranged mods so that pistols can fire specials at 32m< and carbines like 54m < since you cannot increase absolute range, which riflemen need to be range superior."
That's when in started, just so you know. My first..oh, 6 posts were pretty civil, much like yours, showing both side of the coin, reasonable discourse, etc. Id get in response -
But dont you know pistols need to be as inaccurate at long range as rifles are at short range? Was really the only response I got after each one.
--------
Obviously one correspondent wanted another profession nerfed for the wrong reasons, and one didn't care for that.
I like to hear justification for "needs", others...don't. As long as it's a net positive for the profession, push it through, it makes sense! That's not the way to go about in my opinion.
Anyway, yeah, after all that I PM'd the rifle corr to "bury the hatchet", saying "the feud will get ugly, please just stop asking for nerfs to pistoleers". The response to that? Vote item #10.
Anyway, that's just the historical for you, not that it matters, the drama is over for now. Back to sitting idle on the forum waiting for bugs/issues from July to be fixed. *Twiddles thumbs*
Jeagen...we cannot simply sit back and twiddle our thumbs, though it may be frustrating. You have to go on the offensive. Before they can get us nerfed we have to do it to them. That's the game they want to play and our only chance for survival is to play it better than they do.
If we stop making noise...the devs will only have one voice to listen too. If they listen to disinformation then its doom and gloom. We need to pepper them with our information still to keep both sides going. My suggestion, if I may, is to ignore any posts by aldeaon. Don't respond to him, simply state your case over and over in the most emphatic way possible. If he responds, asks for a debate, offer it on PM but don't debate on forum. He is one to use sophistry and chopped logic to confuse the real issues.
Waste,
Thank you for posting ... your post was very well-written and made some good points.
I don't think anyone on this forum would claim that Riflemen don't have any problems. Mobs warping, heavy weapons doing melee damage, 2.5 melee multiplier, HAM costs, etc are all important issues that should be addressed. I know that I've included those last two sentences in at least a dozen posts I've written on this forum and I'm sure that Jaegen feels the same way.
I totally agree with you that insteadof having an "us versus them" war, we need to work together to get our professions fixed and achieve some sort of play balance. Just be careful before you lay some of the blame at Jaegen's feet. I think that if you read his posts, he takes that perspective. Unfortunately YOU are not the Rifleman Correspondent ... the current correspondent has made it very clear to Jaegen, on multiple occasions, that he is more interested in huge nerfs to other professions (hard range caps so he can kite, etc) or in gaining some unbalanced power for his own instead of working together to find bugs and propose reasonable changes.
I sincerely hope that you help guide the Rifleman Correspondent with the sort of reason and good sense you showed in your post. I know that Jaegen, myself, and everyone on here are interested in working with other professions and not against them. But that's a two-way street and I think it would help if you could help your Correspondent take a more mature and balanced attitude.
Ummm you did. Remember the considerable numbers of nerfs that we got put on us? Let me guess you guys had nothing to do with any of them right you were just ignoring the issue. Explain to me what our pro's are compared to our many con's. I would honestly love to know. The only weapons we have that are any good are crappy low end marksmen weapons, we get 2.5x damage from almost everything we PvE, we are incredibly innacurate compared to other weapons, and the list goes on. I want to know what you pistoleers think make us riflmen soooo strong that we should be more then happy with getting our damage cut by 1/3rd.
DiLune wrote:
Jeagen...we cannot simply sit back and twiddle our thumbs, though it may be frustrating. You have to go on the offensive. Before they can get us nerfed we have to do it to them. That's the game they want to play and our only chance for survival is to play it better than they do.
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
Ummm you did. Remember the considerable numbers of nerfs that we got put on us? Let me guess you guys had nothing to do with any of them right you were just ignoring the issue. Explain to me what our pro's are compared to our many con's. I would honestly love to know. The only weapons we have that are any good are crappy low end marksmen weapons, we get 2.5x damage from almost everything we PvE, we are incredibly innacurate compared to other weapons, and the list goes on. I want to know what you pistoleers think make us riflmen soooo strong that we should be more then happy with getting our damage cut by 1/3rd.
DiLune wrote:
Jeagen...we cannot simply sit back and twiddle our thumbs, though it may be frustrating. You have to go on the offensive. Before they can get us nerfed we have to do it to them. That's the game they want to play and our only chance for survival is to play it better than they do.
Awwww....another ostrich takes his head out of the sand long enough to post on the pistoleer board. WE didn't do anything to you. WE asked the devs to fix our broken attacks. WE also pointed out that speed seemed broken. The DEVS went "wow, that's broken, we never intended that to happen." We never asked them to nerf another class. WE only considered our problems with broken specials and marksman level guns WE were saddled with. Why don't YOU take a look at reality and see that all of US need to get fixed and work together. But YOU don't want to work together. YOU want to get us nerfed. YOU specifically ask to get us nerfed. WE will not go gently into the night. WE will fight back. WE asked to work together. YOU don't want to work together. It is US vs YOU. It should be US vs the DEVS. But that isn't how it can be, unfortunately. WE would like to work with YOU but YOU simply want to nerf US. Now stick your head back in the sand and whine about how horrible you have it. How you only do 1000 dmg per shot. How you can't hit anything at all. How riflemen are the lowliest combat class of PVE and PVP. Awww...poor redheaded step-children. Why don't you all go find someone else to comfort you and whine to. WE aren't buying it.
*A lost rifleman wandering in the Pistoleer territory*
/whisper Oh gosh, I hope I don't have a TEF....
he he
Seriously though...
Disclaimer: This is just my point of view/experiences. In no way am I saying nerf Pistoleer, Im just trying to explain where Im coming from.
I am an intermediate rifleman that has picked up a pistol because as a rifleman, I can't hack it against NPCs in PvE. Yes, yes... "I need to know how to play asa rifleman". I ask that please, pleaseno one toinsult me with that line. I know where my strengths and weaknesses lie and I know how to take complete advantage of my strengths...
Now why did I take up some pistol skill? Because if I have to deal with multiple NPCs, I get killed. This example is an average experience for me against 4 white con targets:
First Target: Killed at 60m unseen with headshot 3 (using laser rifle.. T21 is crap)
Second Target: Miss.... Hit 50% of mind bar gone (laser rifle).
I am now visible to targets 2, 3, and 4.
Two of the three charge for melee and the other hits prone for ranged attack. At this point, (assuming they didn't warp, if they warped... Im dead... warping occurs 80% of the time 
) I have to stand up and kite. If I try to take anymore shots, Im screwed because the melee targets will be on me. I now switch to the my "trusted" spraystick. If I'm LUCKY I will be able to suppress one of the two melee enemies while kiting. Lets say Im lucky... the first gets suppressed. I try to suppress the second target...FAIL... Nowhe istoo close for even the spraystick. The end isnear. (NOTE: I have Exploration IV in the scout tree and he caught me... I don't use burst run half of the time because Im always tired and always running from targets). He proceeds to bash my brains in. Each hit foraround350 -500HP (got to love the 2.5 x damage modifier). Now I can't hit anything with any of my weapons. I usually hit an enemy that is in melee range once out of five shots. Lets say Im lucky again... and I kill my first melee attacker, but usually, by then, the other guy is on top of me to finish me off.
Now with my pistol... 4 con white targets...
Target 1: I fire from 50 m to avoid detection with my pistol using BodyShot1. Hit. 60% HAM gone. He doesn't agro... Fire again miss. All 4 targets agro. Fire again... hit and killed. (NOTE: With my pistol I hit around 50% of the time from 50m and with a 1.9 speed that is mighty nice... this is not a nerf cry... just a fact.)
The 2 melee guys come running. Bodyshot Target 2 hit for 50%... Fire again (accuracy is getting better as my targets approach) Hit.... dead... before he evengot to melee range. I begin to kite fromtheother melee targetand use suppression fire. He drops to a knee and Iexecute him. I then charge the ranged attacker (usually they are using a carbine or rifle if they hit prone). I get with in point blank range to screw his accurary and I tear him apart.
By the end of that conflict I've lost 25% health and 10% action.
That is why I had to pick up pistol and none of the above discussed the affect of MIND costs during combat. It was a lot easier to solo white con NPC targets with a pistol.
Im not saying NERF pistol because its too powerful... what I am trying to point out is that rifleman is the only rangedcombat class that can not solo effectivelyin PvE or PvP.
Creature Handlers have several attack weapons. Each pet can attack a different target. Bounty Hunters do VERY well on their own with knockdown and eyeshot capablitites. Since commandos are fixed they can be absolutely deadly with the flame thrower. I've been set on fire so many times it makes me sick. Pistoleers when fixed have a wide variety of options at their disposal and can 'run and gun'. Carbineers have optumum firing abilities in the most common range of combat... he is only penalized at the extremes. All the other ranged combat classes have better odds of winning as a battle progresses, a rifleman's odds get worse. A rifleman has 1 or 2 shots before kiting and once the kiting begins accuracy goes out the window, while his enemies chances of hitting are only getting better as the range gap closes.
When involved in PvP, being a rifleman is only good when being with an attacking group. If you are trying to defend a location, you get flooded by pets and shorter ranged combat classes.. which leaves the rifleman kiting from a pet, bounty hunter, commando, or pistoleer.
*sigh* That is why the rifleman is frustrated.
flydude11, thank you for your support. I appreciate it.
I'm just looking for some balance for rifleman, not nerfs for others.
*Backs slowly away from the Pistoleer Forum* 
DiLune wrote:
Awwww....another ostrich takes his head out of the sand long enough to post on the pistoleer board. WE didn't do anything to you. WE asked the devs to fix our broken attacks. WE also pointed out that speed seemed broken. The DEVS went "wow, that's broken, we never intended that to happen." We never asked them to nerf another class. WE only considered our problems with broken specials and marksman level guns WE were saddled with. Why don't YOU take a look at reality and see that all of US need to get fixed and work together. But YOU don't want to work together. YOU want to get us nerfed. YOU specifically ask to get us nerfed. WE will not go gently into the night. WE will fight back. WE asked to work together. YOU don't want to work together. It is US vs YOU. It should be US vs the DEVS. But that isn't how it can be, unfortunately. WE would like to work with YOU but YOU simply want to nerf US. Now stick your head back in the sand and whine about how horrible you have it. How you only do 1000 dmg per shot. How you can't hit anything at all. How riflemen are the lowliest combat class of PVE and PVP. Awww...poor redheaded step-children. Why don't you all go find someone else to comfort you and whine to. WE aren't buying it.
Your right you didn't ask for them to nerf us, but they did it anyway aww but we didn't ask for it don't be pissed off that your going to be made useless help us help ourselves and then maybe give you a slice. We don't want to nerf you we want to fix our beyond broken profession...know the easiest, most logical, and best way to do that? It involves your accuracy at our range and lowering is involved in the equation. Yes we have broken skills, and a broken tree our gun is crap (thanks to other profs whining about our "massive" damage) and you should help us, just as we should help you guys out with requesting your broken skill fixed...you know what everyone should get their BROKEN skills fixed because they are broken, and that isn't a good thing.
You will not go gently into that night, your gonna rage against the light? What somber night is that, the one that we were forced into months ago, that we are being pushed further into now? That night? I don't want your pity, I don't want your grief I just want you to realize how out of whack the prof's are and the best ways to fix them. What is your solution to make pistols change from the only weapon worth attacking with to hey its another gun, cause I haven't seen it but then again I've been on my forum instead.
Actually nerfing pistol range introduces that unique aspect to each weapon, not DPS and what HAM bar you attack but where you can attack from. Our accuracy is shot from 60 meters until master then it gets fairly good, your accuracy form 60 meters is just as good roughly when you use specials. Noules posted the stats to this and is still on the front page. I just can't grasp what is going on in your profession's heads when you feel that your ability to attack effectively from all ranges is justified. We can't hit **edit** from any range outside of our ideal let alone when we are moving...solution up accuracy? Why what does that do? It makes us as accurate as a pistol, well yay I guess. But won't that just turn all duels into a DPS fight while trying to keep range between players (I"m a Bothan so I'm quick and that doesnt hurt me too much) and if thats the case then pistols will be stronger then rifles again. I seriously don't want to be "god" I'd prefer niestch (sp? it's too early) actually. I just want to be able to compete as of now the only way we can is if we hit master and the devs are in the process changing that. Really the only way to balance out is to make pistols less accurate. Now if this means making pistols themselves or just removing the bonuses that pistol users get from dabbling is beyond me but that is the obvious solution you can take it as it lies or call us moronic children that want to get let out into the sun I really don't care I"m staying rifleman no matter how useless we become I just want to stop the uselessness from coming this soon.
DiLune wrote:
So, we are on the same page after all. Ask yourselves, what does nerfing pistol range accomplish? Nothing. You have problems hitting close and at distance...up your accuracy modifiers! We have said over and over, sounds pretty good to us! There is absolutely no sense nerfing (or calling for nerfs) on another class just because yours is broken. And by the way, we are in a similar boat. When the devs "fixed" Disarmshot2 they didn't fix it, they simply removed a "bug." So we were left with nothing. At that point, nearly a month ago, a hoard of pistoleers dropped master and went BH. That is what we suffered and what prompted us to go "stop nerfing us and just fix what's broken." Now if we can get our correspondants to work together to get our profs fixed things would be swell. But as long as we hear the distant call of nerf (something we heard from BH for the first two months) we will fight tooth and nail against it. We are pretty experienced at that by this point.
Well, you are dancing at the issue, and Aden hit it on the head. If I take BH pistol I will hit the speed cap and have a whole lot of extra to hit mods. As a pure pistoleer (which I am, I have SL as my complementary..har har...profession) I do NOT hit all that well at range with my weapons. If I had bounty pistol I would. Therein lies the problem. If you reduce the range mods for pistols it fixes the bounty pistol/pistoleer combos somewhat, but royally screws the rest of us. Rifleman is in the unique/unfortunate position of not having the complementary class to overpower it.
The BH argument is old so all I will say here is that the same week they made the BH what it is (it sucked before) they announced release. 6 days of testing went into that profession. It was not the best move the Devs could have made.