Pistoleer Archive

Jaegan88,

The special to-hit modifier is not affected by range, eg BodyShot1 give you a +20% (or +25% depending on whose data) to hit at max range and at all other range.

It does man, we've been saying this over and over and over.

The special to-hit modifier is not affected by range. For example, BodyShot1 give you +25% to-hit at 8m and it'll give you +25% to-hit at 64m. I spent many hours collecting data for this and my data indicate 99% accuracy. This is the data, it really isn't debatable.

Now, what is debatable is whether this is "unbalance" or not. In other word, is BodyShot1 giving you +25% to-hit bonus at max range "unbalance".

Consider these points

1) +25% to-hit translate to +50 accuracy skill. Now, to gain 50 accuracy skills, you'll need to advance up between 5 to 7 skill boxes (some boxes only give +5 accuracy). That's equivalent to gaining up to 1,250,000 pistol xp. Put it another way. A noob using BodyShot1 will hit with the same accuracy as someone up to 7 level higher than him using auto-attack. You decide if this is "unbalance".

2) Using real life example (yeah, I know, this is a game, not real life), if you aim at the torso at 8m, would you see the same target if you aim at the torso at 64m? You decide if this is "reasonable".

3) DPS isn't the whole story. What you care about is ADPS (Actual Damage Per Second), which is simply the (to-hit)*(DPS). Now, a +25% gain to-hit isn't a linear +25% ADPS. It's (base + 25%)/base, meaning the lower accuracy you are, the more you gain. At high level, you gain nothing.

Let's take me as an example. When I was noob, I would solo hunt Grand Wrix (I started out as a craftsman, so I made myself the best weapon). As marksman 0/1/0/0, I sux. Yet, I was able to successfully solo Grand Wrix. What I do is run and shoot from 64m at the running Grand Wrix. My base to-hit is 5% (lower cap). But because I was spamming BodyShot1 all day long, I was able to do a tremendous of damage more than my auto-attack. My ADPS went from 0.05 * DPS to (0.05+0.25) * (1.5 BS1 special) * DPS = 9x more (0.05+0.25)*1.5/0.05 = 9x. Yes, it took a long time. But I was still successful.

Of course, the flip side is at Master, you get nothing since the to-hit is cap and the BS to-hit just get wasted.

You decide if this is "unbalance".

Please tell me you understand how to use ideal ranges to modify accuracy.

I do understand how the range modifier work. The range modifier at x distance is m*(x - x0) + b, where x0 is the ideal range and m & b depends on if you're before or after the ideal range, m being the slope based on the weapon stat and b is the ideal range modifier.

For example, taking a contrite PhuoBar special pistol with a range modifier of -50/15/-80 with ideal range of 20m.

The range modifier if you're closer than 20m is (x - 20m) * [ (-50 - 15)/(0m - 20m)] + 15. eg @ 0m, it's -50; @ 10m, it's -17.5; @ 20m, it's +15.

The range modifier if you're further than 20m is (x-20m)*[(-80-15)/(64m-20m) ]+ 15. eg @ 64m, it's -80; @ 30m, it's -6.5; @ 20m, it's +15.

Remember, pistols are easy to use because when they are used, they do standard damage.

Not really pertinent to the question at hand. When hit, all weapon do x damage base on their stat modified by special damage modifier. Doesn't really matter if they're easy to use or do standard damage. Only matter if the weapon damage are "balanced", this question I'm not going to try to answer since I don't have even data to answer.

Pistoleers have ONE AR1 weapon with a 64m range. It's ideal range is 8m. At 64m we have -90 accuracy. That's -40 accuracy after specials. It's STILL less accurate than a rifle at 64m. Doesn't a T21 have 0 at 64m? Hrm +5 accuracy vs -40 accuracy. I'd say favor goes to rifles...as desgined.

Rifles are far more effective when they do hit, and as you see here, they aer also more accurate at range. If you go prone, you add even more accuracy, if you AIM, you add even more accuracy, and you know, most people I know that fire rifles, have to aim first..you know? Even standing rifles are more accurate in that example.

You're missing the point. The question isn't whether rifle can hit more effectively at long range than pistol, the question is "is everything in play balanced"?

Bare number by themselves is utterly meaningless; eg it's meaningless to say pistol hit 40% at long range, just as it's meaningless to say rifle hit 95% at long range.

Balance imply comparision. For rifleman to scream Master pistoleer hit 80% at max range is unbalanced, nerf them, is utter non-sense. Balance imply comparision. Once can't assert unbalanceness without comparision.

One comparision is how well a Master rifleman hit at a pistol ideal range. If they hit 80% at 8m, hey, guess what, everything is balanced. Now, if they only hit 40% at 8m but we hit 80% at max range. This is a flag. Doesn't mean it's unbalanced. There may be other factor we're not aware of.

The best way to address this is not to tell the developers how to do their job--they have access to much more info than we can ever reverse-engineer. The best way is just to raise the issue and let the developer decide for themselves.

Just tell them, hey, does it seem right that BodyShot give you a +50 accuracy modifier, the equivalent of 5 to 7 skill boxes gained?

Hey, does it seem right that BodyShot modifier is the same +50 at 64m as it is at 8m?

Hey, does it seem right that pistool special to-hit modifier is +40 or +50 whereas rifle special to-hit modifier are +10 or +20?

But it's counter-productive to scream, pistoleer correspondent want to be in god-mode, they can hit at will all day long at long range, prove me wrong, nerf them, handcuff them with these restriction-we-didn't-think-through-the-consequencesof.

Balance doesn't mean equal. Just mean equivalent. Just because pistoleer can hit at max range on the run 80% of the time whereas rifleman can only hit 40% at short range doesn't mean it's unbalanced if there are other factors out there.

For example, the dev may just come back and say, well that scenario only happen a small % of time. In the other % of time, pistoleer get jacked. In other % of time, carbineer get jacked. In the end, a small number of situation highly favor pistoleer and a small number of sitution favor rifleman, everything in play is balanced.

If the developer come back and say, well 90% of the time, pistoleer benefit, yet only 10% of the time, rifleman benefit, then I say nerf the pistoleer.

But so far, I only see one side of the argument: Pistoleer special at long range is +25% to-hit. That's too powerful and unbalancing. Nerf them.

DiLune your even read this thread?

The rifleman dont want to kite! BUT without kiting how are wegoing tokill anything because we have such a SHORT optimum range and LOW accuracy bonus to our specials. This is beside the point that we will at master be losing 1/3rd of our dps untill we are compinsated with a dmg boost that may or may not come. I would even be willing to give up ALL our moving accurcay bonuses to discourage kiting, as long as we are compinsateded for that.

I agree the T 21 arguement is stupid because ALL elite weapons atm are flawed.

Back to the point, why do pistoliers need to have their accuracy towned down? BTW i think CAPS are stupid. Its because you are hyper accurate at range when you have styles and HIGH accurcy bonuses in your specials. Sincethe riflemanare losing the ability to out shoot a pistolier at long range do to ourpending high speed loss,we need to be given somthing. By making ALL pistols (including BHs)have asmaller accuracy range, rifleman will be able to get one shot before wereliably hit by pistol specials as you run in. This can make up for the fact that master rifleman are losing its dps by a third and the devs will never up our dps by a 3rd to compinsate our loss.

I dont like nerfing other classes but if you keep your accuracythe only other real fair options are to give us an porportional dps increase to match our reduced speed, meaning reliable one shot kills. The other option is to keep the way it is now where rifleman areinaccurate but fire fast.

The problem is the speed system and i agree that needs to be totally overhualed so when you take in all veriables all elite classes are equil.

If you dont belive me on pistolier special acuraccy bonus look it up from Noules000he did some testsand posted it on your board if i remeber correctly.

You need to remeber we are having our dps lowered by a 3rd at master and ALSO use mind HAM and cant SPAM specials for any period of time. To figure out dmg over time you need to look at DMG, speed, HAM costs, and accuracy. Rifles have high DMG, low accuracy, slow speed and with the nerf slow speed at master too considering, HUGE HAM costs. Pistoliers have medium dmg, HIGH accurcacy, FAST speed and low ham costs.... this isnt balanced.

i am sorry DiLune i didnt mean to single you out and was poor on my part, but this thread is about balance and atm it isnt balanced. I think we can all agree it isnt balanced. Just because its a pistolier board doesnt mean only pistolier can post here...

I admit that i dont want to lose my dmg at master Rifleman so when its suggested to lower my dps by 1/3rd i freak out and say some rash things, if your a master rifleman you might understant because its HARD and takes a LONG time to get. But what needs to be done is balance. IF the devs rebalance the system i dont mind having lower dps for more accuracy toand lower HAM costs so all elite classes have the same dmg over time.

ok i have posted enough for now, time to play hehe =)

IMO i think the best suggestion for balance is a drastic change in the game system where no one does mind dmg but everyone is limited to using specials from mindpool so no one can use specialsfor eternity. Well thats an idea and will never happen hehe.

BAH i cant stop LOL

"Honestly, have you ever seen a deer hunter shoot, stand up, run away and shoot again over his back until the deer following him is dead ? This is SciFi, but that doesn't mean it has to be that unrealistic."

Not that this has anything to do with this thread at all, heh heh but it's just a pet peeve of mine, you are right this is SciFi, so if you ever see my character running away shooting and killing things over my back, please ignore the animation of the arm hanging over my back, because thats not whats killing my target, what is, is the specialy fited and mounted lasers and sensors i have placed on the back of my armor, which are aimed due to the fact that theytrack targets by the heat they generate. and while this is not very accurate, it does slow them down enough untill i can formulate a plan of attack.

Phuobar,

Looks like I hav a lot of responding to do. I will have time tomorrow, it will take more than 3 minutes
I of course, still disagree with you.

You askif rifle/pistoleer is play balanced. According to your correspondent:

I can take anyone but a commando. Im 50 percent with commandos. - Aldeon

I'd say that's a pretty big red flag that rifles are indeed, overpowered, and in need of balance. Exactly the opposite of nerfing pistoleers in any way, shape or form. This was even in a thread of other riflemen saying the exact same thing. do you see lots of pistoleers saying this? I wonder why. Maybe because...unless we also pick BH, we don't compete?

I mean, you'd think he'd suggest nerf commandos from the above, right? Well, he DOES want to get their attacks changed from melee to standard damage AND he wants rifles..his #1 issue, to reduce the melee damage. So I guess he's 1-2 punching is only weakness...and then asking for a heaping help of additional fixes.

Anyway, that's a general response to your balance question, I'll point by point the other ones in the morning.

Seem pistolers want it all
RANGE SPEED DAMAGE

I not seen one post by pistol member actualy as attempt at balanceing this game and thats why things are fubared everyone scared of loseing there power.

If you look at rifleman question will notice a lot people voted no to increase to 100m as its not possible you coulded even target at that range and getting a clear LOS to target would be impossible in a city.

But fact is a pistol can hit accurately at 63m when its 55m OUTSIDE its ideal range and none you seem to think this is a problem BAHAH. Why bother having ideal ranges then just make everything hit 100% the time if your running jumping warping sitting or what ever.

Its a joke that noone is prepared to actualy be HONEST when looking at things

Pistol- If got the best speed and DPS should not have as good of range

Rifle - If they can shot furtherest should not do best DPS

Also notice i voted for the AOE to be removed and so did a lot rifleman DUE to fact we beleave as snipers AOE attacks should not be our best attack.

Ham costs on useing our attacks are way to extreme worse then any other class bar none and should be reduced!

---

Jaegen88 wrote:

Phuobar,

Looks like I hav a lot of responding to do. I will have time tomorrow, it will take more than 3 minutes
I of course, still disagree with you.

You ask if rifle/pistoleer is play balanced. According to your correspondent:

I can take anyone but a commando. Im 50 percent with commandos. - Aldeon

I'd say that's a pretty big red flag that rifles are indeed, overpowered, and in need of balance. Exactly the opposite of nerfing pistoleers in any way, shape or form. This was even in a thread of other riflemen saying the exact same thing. do you see lots of pistoleers saying this? I wonder why. Maybe because...unless we also pick BH, we don't compete?

I mean, you'd think he'd suggest nerf commandos from the above, right? Well, he DOES want to get their attacks changed from melee to standard damage AND he wants rifles..his #1 issue, to reduce the melee damage. So I guess he's 1-2 punching is only weakness...and then asking for a heaping help of additional fixes.

Anyway, that's a general response to your balance question, I'll point by point the other ones in the morning.

---

No ones calling for a Rifleman nerf.

*Some*are calling for a Rifleman fix.

*Some* Riflemen are calling for a Pistoleer nerf instead of a fix to their own profession.

I admit atm todays balance issue comes down to HAM cost. Rifleman feel we should have an advantage since we use mind HAM, and lots of it to boot.This is a huge issue because we cant use stim b's to heal and we use much more HAM for the same amount of dmg. Now how rifleman see it, we are balanced because we do short term huge dps while pistols do long term DPS. I understand howothers see that we are overpowered because we domassive dmg in a short amount of time at master.

Anotherproblem is PvP and PvE. In PvP master rifleman own because of the massive short term dpsbut do to the costly HAM usage we utterly suck in PvE because npcs have HUGE HAMs. We run out of mind while other classes use stim bs and keep going. The problem is thatby nerfingrifle speed by a thirdyou DRASTICLY effect PvE. Since the dev team doesn't want us to one shot kill, we will not get the equilivent 3 timesdmg bonus from the speed loss. This is the real issue i have with the speed nerf.

Rifleman have so many troubles leveling that i dont know ANY other master rifleman on Wandershome, but there must be at least another... One could argue that this could be another balancing factor since its so hard to level and thus a low level amount of masters.

Some Rifleman also feel that (i dont agree with this one) we should be compinsated for the fact that we have no hybrid class to augment our rifle skills, like pistolier or carbine have BH, many feel we deserve the short term dps.

Last idea most rifleman like to bring up is that we need the short term dps because we have no ability to keep melee npcs off us. Believe it or not rifleman cant hit the broad side ofa barn if its under 30m while standing and even less while movingand on top of thatmost mobs get under 30m in only a few seconds. The spraystick is pretty low dpswith pretty high HAM costs so im telling you on mobs with any HAM this thing isnt that effective. We also have a 2.5 times dmg penalty to melee which makes for even faster death. With poor accuracy on most our weapons we often miss the few shots we have a chance of hitting. I hope you see the idea why we need HIGH DPS in the situation we have. There are some other solutions to this but the devs will adress it.

Just trying to show you some of the riflemans perspective and why we get defensive over our abilities and DPS. Feel free to counter because i know you want to LOL

Actually I think thats a great post there Boborina.

I also think you are really on to something with the point about the MoB HAM issue.

What about....a boost to damage to Riflemen special moves (in addition to fixing of abilities such as take cover) to help bring equality to riflemen in PvE....BUT adifferent PvP damage reduction for Rifle type weapons?