Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The New Defensive Mods Not So Great
Altitude25 wrote:
I said it when I first saw these changes, and I'll say it again. I'd trade all of those things for an increase in Pistol Speed. We shouldn't have to dabble in other professions to get the so-called benefit of using faster weapons. The speed modifier you get as a Master Pistoleer is a joke. Give me +10 to my pistol speed and keep all the other crap.
You're absolutely right. For pure Pistoleers, +10 Pistol Speed would be a significant but not overpowering boost ... while it would do nothing for templates that are already overpowered, like mine (BH/Pistol combo), because the BH/Pistol combo types already have +100 speed.
Adding Pistol Speed makes sense, although the Devs "said" they were already doing that for us. 
Maybe we should push for that after trying to get the FWG5 un-nerfed.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Nice try. The bottom line is that right now Pistoleer doesn't work on its own, for the most part. I just want this profession to work and be useful on its own, like other professions are.
Yes, I understand that you can gain additional skills in other classes, which will make you stronger. That's true with every profession. But you haven't given me one good reason why other professions -- BH, Commando, Smuggler, TKA, Doctor --should be viable on their own while Pistoleer is broken. That makes no sense.
If someone wants to be a Pistoleer/Chef or a Pistoleer/Pikeman, Pistoleer should work for themwithout having another pistol classadded with it. It shouldn't work as well, obviously, but it should work.
What you're asking for is for us to have skills that are worthless if you're a pure Pistoleer but become very powerful if you master another profession. I don't like that idea at all, because it means that Pistoleer is gimped as a profession yet there is some uber dabble combo out there that will be overpowered. We already have specials like that, and they're the reason that people who aren't BHs are frustrated with the Pistoleer tree while BHs like you and me are happy with the Pistoleer tree the way it is.
While I admire your ability to put together coherent arguments and present them well, I (as a Master Pistoleer/Expert BH, same as you) must say your argument here is flawed. Your request for Pistoleer to be useful in and of itself is reasonable, but then you go on to compare it to your idea of other professions that are useful in and of themselves....all of which, save TKA, require MANY more skillpoints to reach than Novice Pistoleer, and again MANY more skillpoints to master than Master Pistoleer.
BH- I mastered Pistoleer in 1 week. It cost 96 skill points. It took me 1 month of steady playing to even qualify for Novice BH. It cost 168 (?) skill points. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
Commando- Another hybrid that costs many more skill points and time expenditure to qualify even for Novice. Not to mention you have to spend time leveling multiple weapon types to master it. Again, apples and oranges.
Smuggler- Yet another hybrid that costs more skillpoints and time to qualify for even Novice. Again, one is required to spend time doingthings other than kill things with a pistol to Master it. Yet again, apples and oranges.
Doctor- An elite profession that requires mastery of an entire Novice profession. Again, more time andskillpoints spent. Another case of apples and oranges.
TKA- The one exception. The only tradeoff I see here is the fact that TKA is melee, thus allowing for a bit more compensation in power. Still though, a TKA's true potential is not realized until combined with another profession since taking damage from MOBs in unavoidable. This would put it in the same category as Pistoleer in your argument. This is like comparing red apples to green apples; entirely different tastes, but apples nonetheless.
So, in conclusion, you cannot possibly compareand request that Pistoleer be on the same level of power in and of itself to the professions that you listed above. Quite simply, Elite professions in this game should be seen as support classes, allowing for versatility within a character at the cost of some raw power. Hybrids, on the other hand, due to much higher skill point and time expenditures, as well as the need to gain different types of xp to master, should be seen as "careers", and of course should be the only professions that are in fact useful in and of themselves due to the fact that Mastering them limits a character's ability to dabble to the fullest potential, and thusly, the character's versatility.
Pistoleer should in the end only be looked at and compared to the other ranged Elite (support) professions. Otherwise the problem of extremely overpowered characters, of which we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg now (Master Pistoleer/Expert BH), will only continue to get worse. This will only result in more and more nerfs. You are, in effect, asking for Pistoleer to become more overpowered that it already is. Elite professions are merely support classes used to build a character that is useful through a combination of abilities. Hybrids are the only professions that should be useful in and of themselves.
"BH- I mastered Pistoleer in 1 week. It cost 96 skill points. It took me 1 month of steady playing to even qualify for Novice BH. It cost 168 (?) skill points. You're comparing apples to oranges here."
Not to poke too many holes here...to qualify for BH you need 40k combat xp. to master pistoleer you need 415k combat xp. Did you REALLY master pistoleer in a week? I think not.
Qualifying for Bounty Hunter is certainly more difficult than qualifying for Pistoleer, but that doesn't mean that getting Novice Bounty Hunter is exactly difficult. Marksman is mastered without too much difficulty, and Scout is hands down the easiest profession in the entire game to master.
Anybody who would invest enough time in this game to master Pistoleer in one week should have been able to qualify for Novice Bounty Hunter in half that time.
Oh, and just to qualify - I mastered Scout myself and worked my way up to 3-3-3-3 in Ranger before dropping it for Combat Medic, so I know first hand just how easy it is. That's not to suggest that it's easy to become a Master Bounty Hunter, but getting to Novice should be a piece of cake.
As a PIstoleer who playes pure PvE and also as a Master Ranger meaning I can't invest in other combat professions, these Defensive mod increases all around will be a god send. I can see your arguements for its use or lack there of in PvP across the board...but if you look at the changes in creature balance, CHs, Bio Engineers, Mounts, etc etc....it becomes pretty obvious that this next publish is very very PvE oriented. And, the defensive boosts to the Pistoleer tree are all in areas that are far more useful for PvE play.
If I were to take a guess into the minds of the devs...I'd say they are likely focusing on fine tuning PvE this go around, with the next patch focusing much more heavily on the PvP aspect with likely, further refinements then.
Ok, I was part of CH tree and Master Pistoleer (wich can't help me at all) with Marksman Ranged Support 4.
But I hardly believe you can Master Pistoleer in a single week when you can't get Novice BH in less than 1 month or you are doing something terribly wrong. Master Pistoleer is as long to get as Master BH, I did it, I know what I'm talking about. The combat XP needed is just horrible as a Pistoleer.
For the exact same reason, Master Rifleman and Master Carbineer are faster to get, just because you get mob down much faster and get more XP per kill, thus more Combat XP.
Master Doctor=140 skill points.
Master Smuggler=121 skill points
Master Commando=169 skill points
Master bounty hunter=217 skill points.
Master pistoleer=92 skill points.
As someone said before me, all the classes you listed are more expensive then the pistoleer....
Your power is in your skill to dabble....
Take these points into acount...
- Pistoleer stacks well with multiple classes.
- Pistoleer is the cheapest a skill point invesment an "elite" profession can be.
Those two points allow you to pair with multiple classes, for an amazing power....
But lets compare...If we all only had the pistoleer skill points to spend...How far up in these trees could we make it?
Doctor= 1,1,0,0.....Could a 1,1,0,0 doc beat a pistoleer? No
Bounty hunter= You could not even make it to the class with 92 points.
Commando=You could not even make it to the class with 92 points.
Smuggler=1,1,1,1 Could this smuggler defeat a pistoleer? No
These classes are crap at 92 skill points....
So the question is.....Why should you be able to spend 92 skill points, and get a very powerful class, yet these classes can spend 92 and get next to nothing?
The point is, 92 skill points yields its biggest return in the pistoleer tree....Most of the classes you listed do not even begind to pay of in terms of power until about 120 skill points spent....
So tell me, how is that fair?
Not to poke too many holes here...to qualify for BH you need 40k combat xp. to master pistoleer you need 415k combat xp. Did you REALLY master pistoleer in a week? I think not.
You gain 80% of your combat exp for pistoleer through just grabbing the other three trees....Combat exp is a joke once you hit an elite profession hehe.
DiLune wrote:
Not to poke too many holes here...to qualify for BH you need 40k combat xp. to master pistoleer you need 415k combat xp. Did you REALLY master pistoleer in a week? I think not.
Actually yes, I did. I was previously BH 2444/CH 2200 before I decided to try something new. If you can solo Kamurith Defiler missions then you know how easy it would be to get all that xp. 5k Pistol xp, 500 Combat xp per killadds up VERY quickly. It's 35k Pistol, 3500 Combat xp per mission (6 lizards, 1 lair), with 2 missions per run...so that's 70k Pistol, 7k Combat every 30 minutes. I usually play 4-6 hrs. per night, sometimes less.
Now do you see how I could master Pistoleer in a week?
Oh, and it takes ALOT more than 40k Combat xp for Novice BH. Don't forget Master Marksman and Master Scout. For Novice Pistoleer you onlyneedPistol 4 and 125k more Pistol xp. Not to poke too many holes here though.....
The point is, 92 skill points yields its biggest return in the pistoleer tree....Most of the classes you listed do not even begind to pay of in terms of power until about 120 skill points spent....
**edit** edit....LOL
The point is most of these classes do not even begin to match the pistoleers power until about 120+ points are spent.
Also, the difficulty of mastering any class in this game is nill hehe
Ok, let's get this straight:
I mastered Pistoleer in one week because I already had BH Pistol 4 skills to helpget xp fast. What's his face up there qualified for Novice BH is 12 hours because he already had some xp in the bank and skills to help get more quickly. Things were alot different when I did it.
All you people saying qualifying for Novice BH doesn't take very long.....
YOU TAKE A NEWBIE TOON FROM SCRATCH WITHOUT ANY XP BANKED AND 250 CREDS IN THE BANK AND TELL ME YOU CAN MASTER MARKSMAN AND SCOUT QUICKLY.
I started on day two. Weapons sucked (the BEST Scout Blaster did 99 dmg. and was 2.6 spd., FWG5s were a pipe dream). Crafting traps andcamps did not give survival xp.No one knew anything about the game unless you were in Beta. I knew no one. I had no help. I did it completely solo. And yes it took about 1 month because of all that.
Sure, you could probably do it alot quicker know, but things were ALOT different when I did it.
Why the **edit** would I get on here and lie when Phil and I use the same farking template? BH is getting nerfed because of guys like us. We don't need Pistoleer nerfed too, and the crap Phil is suggesting would lead to just that.
God, I didn't like most of you when I was a BH. Now I'm a Pistoleer and I still don't.
FallOut1214 wrote:
BH- I mastered Pistoleer in 1 week. It cost 96 skill points. It took me 1 month of steady playing to even qualify for Novice BH. It cost 168 (?) skill points. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
is misleading. I don't doubt that it did take you those amounts of time. You did novice BH first, as a brand new toon. You did Master Pistoleer as an established player. Of course a newbie mastering any skill will take a long time. But you are implying thatnovice Bounty Hunter is four times as hard/time-consuming as Master Pistoleer, and that is false and a little insulting.
I agree that the power of the skill points we have left over should not be underestimated. One of the main reasons I am a Pistoleer instead of a BH is that I want some freedom with my template. But we're starting to feel as if our sole reason for existence is so that other combat professions have something to dabble in with their leftover points. Every profession should have temptations for dabblers, but every profession should also be able to stand alone.
I really think that for the sake of balance, there shouldn't be a great deal of combat effectiveness to be gained by dabbling. I think the benefit of dabbling ought to be getting a unique mix of fun, interesting, or potentially lucrativeabilities. Stuff like the ranger tracking line, or the smuggler underworld line (does this suck right now? the concept is cool at least). Hybrid professions should get a nice big themed package of things like that, as well as be slightly better at combat. Right now, certain skills not only stack, but become drastically better at high skill levels, so dabbling seems to be the only way to compete.
Anyway, now I've strayed way off topic. I agree with the original post. That huge increase in dodge sounds nice, but I would really like to know how much it helps. I suspect it doesn't help much. I wish they would work on the top issues that correspondents report instead of other random stuff.
Taewyn
I am new to SWG so I will comment and ask.
That, is a very nice template you built on paper, but really, does it work? Do the defenses really stack for usage from Fencer/TKA to enhance defenses for Pistoleer or do they just work within the profession in which they were aquired?
Vadis