Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Should Pistol and Rifle DPS be even?
Boborina wrote:
oaktree68 this is what i mean...
Damage per second ...This is short term dmg when your looking at a 10 second interval.
Damage over time... Thisis when you look at total damage over10 minutes.
Damage per Second and Damage Over Time are the same concept.
-If a player does 20,000 damage in 10 minutes, they are doing 33.33 Damage per Second.
-If they are doing 33.33 Damage per Second, they will do 20,000 damage in 10 minutes.
And to the original posters question, Riflemen SHOULD have a higher rate of DPS over a Pistoleer. They have greater disadvantages.
-The 2.5 melee modifier is no joke, when you get smacked holding a rifle, you get smacked HARD.
-The mind cost on rifle use is EXTREME. With a few basic stims (either self-administered, or pumped by a group member), a Pistoleer can chain Bodyshots for hours on end. A Rifleman gets in 10 to 25 Headshots, then their Mind bar is spent.
-Auto attacks and random HAM pool specials favor a Pistoleer.Random HAM and auto attacks go 50% to Health, 35% to Action and 15% toMindon average. That means if you have pets in the group, players using auto attacks or players using random damage specials, players targeting the Mind pool are getting the least amount of support.
-Rifles miss more when the target is too close then pistols miss when the target is too far away.
-Both professions have many broken and non-useful skills, so that point is moot.
-Players run slower while carrying a rifle as compared to running with a pistol in hand.
-Riflemen have no other skill trees which stack on rifle skills or add additional skill modifiers. Pistoleers can can stack in BH pistol skill modifiers, powerful BH special moves, powerful Smuggler special moves or add in the Launcher Pistol from picking up Novice Commando.
-Though it is a bug, the warping of targets is hardest on Riflemen. Going prone and shooting a target seems to make them likely to suddenly warp onto the Rifleman's head. Pistoleers are rarely prone, so this bug impacts them the least.
With the exceptiondamage output between Pistoleers and Riflemen, I cannotthink of one concrete advantage Riflemen have over Pistoleers. Because there are more drawbacks to playing a Rifleman, it is completely justified for them to do more damage.
Cheers,
Juba
--Flurry--
Untill BH have thier eye shot moved to mind or nerfed you shouldnt be worring about rifleman doing mind dmg... IMO ALL mind dmg specials should do less mind dmg but have their HAM costs reduced to a porportional level as well, exept that BH specials are to cheap in my biased opinion... hows that sounds?
2nd problem is that by making SS2 action and head shots mind people will have to do 2 things. They will have to split up there points between mind and action secondariesor execlusivly use one or the other... Im telling you that they will not split up thier points so your making head shots utterly useless because of its POOR HAM to dmg ratio caompaired to SS2.
Part of the problem is that in PvE rifleman NEED high DPS because we have such a limited accuracy range. If we only attack mobs that run our speed we can kite themwith horrable accuracy but1) thats no fun and 2) that utterly hardens upper level rifleman who have no slow running mobs. The only way to do it is by haveing HIGH dps to kill the mob while hestill isin the optimum range before he gets to close, if he gets to close we have no ability to save ourseves other than a 1 in 4 chance we will hit(thats master accuracy), which still might not be enough to kill him. If we have normal dps then we will hit him then hit him once more, at this time the mob will be at 32m, next shot we may or may not hit and the 4th shot missed because he is to close and at this point we die an ugly death. Im not asking to kill reds just high level blues this way...
Juba I agree that rifle has some major disadvantages right now (HAM costs, 2.5 melee, etc). But you guys are asking for that stuff to be fixed, and rightfully so. I think the DPS should be even if that stuff is fixed.
But don't overstate the case. Rifle does have some major advantages as well. You hit the mind pool, which is generally the shortest bar in PvP and is impossible to heal and hard to buff. Also your weapons are very powerful so you can often take down an enemy in 1-2 hits.
Both sides have advantages and disadvantages. Like I said my opinion that there should be equal DPS (distributed in different ways -- fast but weak weapons versus slow but strong weapons) is based on the notion that the major problems (warping mobs, HAM costs, etc) are fixed.
No, DPS should not be the same as long as there's other factors out there.
What everybody want is a fair chance in a fight.
Boborina wrote:
Juba444 technicly your right about DPS but...
The problem is the pistoliers look at DPS as in what i discribed as DPS while rifleman see DPS as in what i discribed as damage over time.
We werent defining DPS the same way so many people argue about balance.
I think what Boborina is trying to express here is the difference between initialDPS and sustained DPS.
Riflemen have a fairly high initial DPS, because there is no delay for their first shot, and they have very effective (and unhealable) styles. Pistoleers have a higher sustained DPS, because their styles are available longer, because they consume a pool which can be healed. Also, if the Riflemen are hit as hard by the delay caps as we currently expect, the sustained DPS difference will be even more exaggerated.
Should they have the same DPS? Yes, I think they should. Both trees are equally hard to progress through, and consume the same number of skill points toward the same goal, combat effectiveness. Pistoleers should have advantages in mobility and close-quarters battle, while Riflemen should have an advantage in first-shot stopping power, long-range engagement, and precision. How this DPS is expressed, however, is subject to debate. In my (less than fully educated) opinion, a Rifleman should put out some exceptional, and in extreme cases instantly fatal damage, but his cycle time should be such that an enemy which survives one shot is a problem, and after two is a Serious Threat.
Currently, the long-range advantage Riflemen have is not sufficient, as Pistoleers do seem to hit more often than we should at extreme ranges. The precision advantage is reflected in the Rifleman's attacks which cause State Effects. At present, the closest a Pistoleer can come to this is either a melee attack (Pistol Melee Defense 1) or a Marksman ability (Suppression fire, in the Support branch).
Additionally, the melee damage suffered by Riflemen for the sin of holding a Rifle is extreme and nonsensical. Every military force on Earth since the time of the American Revolution has trained its soldiers in the methods of close battle with a long weapon. The thought that military trainers in a galaxy far, far away would have missed this concept is beyond ludicrous.
-c.
Here's your reason why DPS should be same for Pistoleer/Carbineer/Rifleman.
IT COSTS THE SAME AMOUNT OF SKILL POINTS TO OBTAIN MASTERIES IN EACH.
The difference should be in individual shots and unique specials to determine which unique weapon you like as an individual.
'NUFF SAID, END OF ALL SUCH SIMILAR THREADS
back to real discussions please
oaktree68 wrote:
You know, I keep reading the responses from both the pistoleers and rifleman and I keep seeing essentially the same root argument. Do you think these the DPS should be even across the board. For the basis of answering this, I want to use the number that rifle is currently doing 2.5x the damage as pistols. I dont care about the speed equation. I dont want to here other balancing issues. Lets say nothing changes. Im looking for real reasons here justifying your position. Saying "because thats the way it should be" is not a reason. Also realize that weapon speed is a function of DPS. If you increase the delay on rifles, the damage needs to go up to compensate. If you dont understand DPS or how it works, ask. I (along with many other people on this board) would be glad to explain it you. Just post your answer (yes/no) and post the reasons.
My answer is no, they should not be even.
Reasons being we have the 2.5x melee modifier preventing us from being able to take any real sort of damage. We also have extreme problems with sustained DPS due to our specials using mind instead of a healable pool.
Tilen
Scylla
P.S. Sorry if you see this as trolling. But I dont think (yes, I will post it there too) I am going to get a real objective view of things on the rifle board.
I like this question, and although I haven't read the other answer's, I'd like to give my 2c worth.
DPS should be the same. Rifleman should hit for more damage, But with greater delay. Pistoleer should hit for less damage, but quicker, so for every...let's say 5 seconds...both should have done the same DPS IF, once again, IF, Accuracy was not a factor and we did not miss at all. With this in effect, once you activate the accuracy modifier for distances, the rifleman and pistoleer will now have his/her advantages/disadvantages, and the outcome of the battle will depend on who managed to enter their 'sweet spot' first. I hope I made that clear enough, if not let me know and i"ll try to explain it differently, my mind is like jello now 
As for the 2.5x melee modifier. That should definatly stay. Reason why is simple, Rifleman are given something that Pistoleer's aren't given, it's called Cover. You can use cover to take a couple extra shots over a pistoleer, This is the reason for that modifier. However, a Pistoleer, as well as a Rifleman, can pick up the scouting side and get mask scent (currently broken...again), which will allow both of us to take about 3 extra shots of Pistoleer's BS2, not sure about rifleman, but I do know that Mask Scent and Cover works to give you even more time to shot before your discovered, However, It will only stack if you us Mask Scent first, then use Cover. I gave up my rifle skills a bit ago to make room for ranger, so I'm not sure if that has changed, but I doubt it.
Lifty wrote:
IT COSTS THE SAME AMOUNT OF SKILL POINTS TO OBTAIN MASTERIES IN EACH.
Skill points are not the only issue. If DPS is the same, and skill points are the same, then you need to make sure the misc advantages and disadvantages are the equal as well. That means adding additional disadvantages to Pistoleers or removing disadvantages to Riflemen.
And YES, Riflemen have MORE disadvantages then Pistoleers and the slim advantages that Riflemen have that Pistoleers do not are simply NOT enough to balance that profession if DPS becomes equal.
And just why does every profession have to have the same damage output? Why? To satisfy the narrow minded black and white tunnel vision view point that tragically too many people play this game with. I would rather professions were wildly different. Hell, turn Riflemen into true snipers, give them twice as much damage output but up double their Mind cost and up their melee damage modifier.
At the very least Riflemen should have their range upped to 128m, and Pistoleers range should be reduced to 32m.
Give players choices. Make them weight the ups and downs of each class. Every player has 250 points to spend, so if you think the grass is greener on the other side, nothing is stopping you from checking it out for yourself.
Cheers,
Juba
--Flurry--
- No 2.5x melee modifier
- The same accuracy mods across the board.
- Rifles begin to shoot at about 5 seconds a shot with the T21 (assuming rifle is put to pistol dps). The other instance is we all have the exact same weapons except for name (T21 rifle would have the same stats as the DX2).
Now, this seems to be a very homoginized play style. Everybody is exactly the same. I think that leads to very bland playing expierence. For people from other MMORPG's imagine if all the classes exacted the same. They all pumped out the same DPS. They all tanked exactly the same. Casters were limited on the spells but could take damage as well as the melee classes. I'm sure a game like that would do extremely well, dont you?
Balance is not defined in terms of DPS. Just like speed is a function of DPS, DPS is a function of balance. Some of you said that you thought dps should be even, so playstyle would be factor. Well, I contend that it is. Currently a pistol has very few drawbacks. You have no melee penalties. You have greater accuracy. You can spam specials until your char is blue in the face. But your dps is low. That is the playstyle u choose. You chose to be a more defensive class that has greater accuracy with better HAM management. My friends thats a playstyle. Rifleman choose higher dps but less accuracy, a melee damage modifier, and poor HAM management. They choose those things for the higher DPS. That is a playstyle. If you think that your choice of class in not what you desired, I urge you to reconsider.
Tilen
Scylla
Bolanos wrote:
As for the 2.5x melee modifier. That should definatly stay. Reason why is simple, Rifleman are given something that Pistoleer's aren't given, it's called Cover. You can use cover to take a couple extra shots over a pistoleer,
Ummm... are you honestly suggesting that Take Cover is an adequate enough skill to outweigh the 2.5 melee damage modifier? Please, pass a hit or two of what you are smoking around to the rest of us.
Let's take a look at Take Cover shall we? Can't be used in PVP, because of a beautiful little invention called a radar. Worthless in groups, 99.5% of all the groups out there simply rely on brute force, and there is no way in hell the BH or Commando in the groupis going to stand there and let the Rifleman sneak a few quick shots in.
And,Take Cover only affects the thing you are shooting, its' friends still agro on you. So, Take Cover is a skill that is truely only worthy for a solo Rifleman that is not attacking lairs (as lairs generally have group agro), but is looking for single spawns wandering about. A skill that sounds great on paper, but is truly less then stellar.
Cheers,
Juba
--Flurry--
Well Tilen your Correspondent has asked for the 2.5 melee modifier to be removed, forpistols to be far less accurate,and for HAM costs to be reduced. So what balances out 300% more DPS than Pistoleer? We're already at a huge disadvantage because all of our special attacks hit a random HAM pool and have no state effects.
I have no problem with Riflemen wanting the 2.5 melee modifier reduced -- I think it's dumb and not fun, especially in PvE. Same with HAM costs. But that means that DPS should be similar.
I don't think that DPS is the only way to differentiate the three classes ... have some imagination! Not only should rifles hitHARD but slow as opposed to fast but weak (as pistols do), but they should also have unique abilities. The Devs should make the Cover ability useful in PvP by making it enable the Rifleman (for a limited period of time, subject to some limitations for balance) to hide from the radar. There are a lot of neat ways to create specials and abilities that will set all three classes apart.