Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleers can we get behind these proposals and try and help another class?
I agree on several of the options.
1) fix any broken or useless specials ( this is kind of a universal thing for all classes )
Absolutely, across the board
2)Up damage appropriately to compensate for the new speed cap
As some speed caps are entered, there should be damage increases. However, a 6x damage multiple that some suggest is out of line and doesn't make sense with the math involved.
3)Reduce their insane mind costs
With their damage and rate of fire, their HAM costs are going to be in line with ours. We will be firing several times (up to six times) the number of shots that they will, and that would already put our HAM costs above theirs. When they fired one shot per second, they were accruing much higher HAM per second. Now we will be inline with the shots per second we all encounter.
4) fix the mob warping problem asap
Agree. Considering the vulnerability of the rifle up close, I agree.
5) extra accuracy modifyers at long range
Sounds good to me. Better accuracy for them at extreme ranges, worse for us.
6)reduction in damage they take from melee
Sound good.
7) now for the issue everyones worked up about extra range for rifle.Extra range while moving would be unbalancing and silly (rifles are not accurate at all when your running in RL) but would it be unreasonable to give riflemen an extra 16 to 20m range when prone or in take cover mode?Eg. when prone or in take cover mode they get a 80-84m range
This one is difficult because a rifleman could use this range to the point that they could kite the other ranged classes. Prone and standing can be done fairly fast, so someone could use a quick /prone;/suppressionfire;/stand; macro to keep someone from ever hitting them. Sure it would be 3 seconds before they could suppress you, but they have all the time in the world. They would also be able to destroy stationary targets such as turrets with no danger at all.
Any difference in actual maximum range between weapons is absurd.
If you give any weapon a greater range, PvP will be pointless because anyone with the higher range weapon will be able to kite you. Unless you REALLY reduced running speed for people with said weapons (I mean a lot more than what the rifles suffer right now), or imposed ridiculous accuracy penalties for trying to move with said weapons, the whole idea is bunk. (I'm not suggesting that either of the above is the right thing to do... those ideas are just as bunked).
Keep maximum range the same for all weapons... otherwise it's kite city.
Phuobar wrote:
Capping it at 25%, 20% or even 10% would be better ( a 8.8s capped at 1.8s or 0.8s) is not too unbalancing while still give you a reason to climb the skill tree.
So, A rifle shooting for 1k damage at 0.8 seconds is BALANCED with a pistol doing 200 damagein 0.8 Seconds? Whatever your smoking, please pass me some, cause I'll need alot of it to agree to that! If your weapon is 8.8, you should be capped at 4.4, half the weapon speed. That goes for all weapons, not just rifleman. The damage must stay the same with this effect in place, otherwise, by raising the damage and the delay is like not doing anything to it to begin with, you will still have a class that does 400 DPS compaired to another class that does 80 DPS. There is no balance there, the DPS must be close to each other, with each class having their weakness and strengths, whether it be distance or special moves.
I would. But #1 on their goof priority list is getting pistoleers nerfed because they dont understand they have better accuracy at range. They dont understand how to use ideal range, they dont understand they are a long range support fire profession that doesnt run around and shoot from the hip, but when they DO set up ideal range, they have better accuracy than pistols..period.
They also want reduced HAM costs, and pre-nerf T21s, and to take less melee damage, and to have better defense when under Cover. Hm, more damage, more defense, less HAM cost, nerf pistoleers, wow, yeah, I should really get behind that. How about Learn how to play your profession, and stop making us teach you. Once that's accomplished, sure. I've said time and time again, I'd be more than happy to help run test and make suggestions, bump posts, whatever..but no one was interested in that. They want..as you see, to nerf their opponents and get God mode activated.
I always mention carbineers and now am mentioning polearms in posts, they need help. Rifleman? Well, when their correspondent learns how to utilize ideal range and stops asking for nerfs to the competition...maybe.
They dont understand how to use ideal range, they dont understand they are a long range support fire profession that doesnt run around and shoot from the hip, but when they DO set up ideal range, they have better accuracy than pistols..period.
Oh, we understand that fully well. Wasn't it you who said to me I should learn to kite just an hour ago ? Make up your mind please, am I a long range support profession or a short range artistic sprinter ? At the moment being the artistic sprinter is the most successful tactic, much to our dismay.
I'm master marksman. My rifle at it's ideal range misses more than my pistol at worst range ( both at 60m ). And don't talk about tactics, there are no tactics involved in kneeling and pressing headshot1/bodyshot1.
If you compare the numbers you see, you are right, we should be more accurate. Sadly, the numbers you see lie due to the special bonus. Maybe you take up a rifle and experience that for yourself.
nvoigt wrote:They dont understand how to use ideal range, they dont understand they are a long range support fire profession that doesnt run around and shoot from the hip, but when they DO set up ideal range, they have better accuracy than pistols..period.
Oh, we understand that fully well. Wasn't it you who said to me I should learn to kite just an hour ago ? Make up your mind please, am I a long range support profession or a short range artistic sprinter ? At the moment being the artistic sprinter is the most successful tactic, much to our dismay.
I'm master marksman. My rifle at it's ideal range misses more than my pistol at worst range ( both at 60m ). And don't talk about tactics, there are no tactics involved in kneeling and pressing headshot1/bodyshot1.
If you compare the numbers you see, you are right, we should be more accurate. Sadly, the numbers you see lie due to the special bonus. Maybe you take up a rifle and experience that for yourself.
Father, you gave them eyes but they are blind
JC, about 2003 years before SWG.
T21 is a huge dmg weapon with poor accuracy. You still don't miss that much (you master marksman, you firing for sure with a FWG5 whatever your target is...FWG5 is a VERY accurate pistol...try DX2 for a change, it is our AP1 CLASS pistol. Compare things that should be compared). I frankly have no need to try it once more because I was Master Carbineer, then Master Rifleman (in beta, sorry) and was BH Carbine 3 / Pistol 4 / LLC 2 and Investigation 1. Really, try to get Master Pistoleer and see how unbalanced what you are asking for is.
We should only discuss these things for Master level at first, then try to balance the profession progress. You are calling a Novice Rifleman to be able to kill with ease a Master Pistoleer here...even Marksman special moves with a T21 at novice Rifleman is 10 times better than a Master Pistoleer with Dream Smithed DX2 (dmg 250-400 dly 1) so please, try to comprehend you're out of topic here. We are talking about SWG, not your "Sweet Dreams Game".
Without any Risk, there is no reward. Discuss with casual BH and their ease to kill ppl. They for the most part HOPE there will be some different kind of combat soon and some balance, because they do not have any fun to kill ppl without any risk.
Oh, and keep in mind you are ruining the only pool that we can't buff or heal.
Master Rifleman is way overpowered too if we consider its speed mods, do you realise you are firing at a higher rate than me with some of my DX2 ?
Balancing isn't making you untouchable, it is giving everyone a fair chance to survive / kill if they play wisely.
Wasn't aware Riflemen Correspondant was that proud of himself, I for sure would like to show him a Rifleman is nothing else but a Rifleman...if he enters my combat garden, he is dead. I kill ppl because I bring them where I am the best, not because I am better than them.
I still think their good ideas to help the rifleman but i really dont care what happens to the rifleman anymore after i read this gem written by their correspondent:
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So making it so pistol styles only works at 32 meter or less, and caribineers 54 meters or less, would give us a well advantage over pistoleers. Giving us a chance to get the 2nd shot off if we stand still, or to run and keep them in that 32-64 meters range forcing them to use base attacks.
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All i read their is he wants to kite us with special while taking away our ability to return fire with specials.He fails to reconize a large portion of our specials are already limted to under 20m.And apparnetly thinks rifles should be be accurate enough while running so they can kite the other classes.
But ya i still stand by my original post that those would be good ideas to help the rifleman and wouldnt be unbalancing.Buth their corespondent will not settle for anthing less then getting pistols nerfed because he believes pistoleers responsible for getting the hard speed cap put in.He's repeatedly said he is trying to get pistols nerfed period so i have no inclination to try and help him or his class in the least anymore.Guess the everyone for themselves mentality is the only way to go in SWG.
They should have AGGRAVED dmg in melee because they are MEANT to stay far from their victims. (not a personnal asumption, sorry)
They are MUCH faster than us with their mods (95 mod if master marksman, no one, really ?) They change a 10 dly weapon into a 1 dly one....SERIOUSLY !
We are FAR less accurate than them above 32m, no question here, no asumptions, only facts. Not to mention they hit for 5 times our dmg, thanx.
So, a Master Rifleman hits at the same speed, for 5 times our dmg PLUS AP dmg, they are more accurate and they want now pistoleers to not being able to use their specials and have melee dmg reduction ? Hey kids, go play Counter Strike with cheats and leave us alone trying to balance the game.
For sure a Novice Rifleman is a much more sad situation : THIS IS NORMAL ! Actually, it is the best thing that may happen to a profession : Master >>>>>> Novice.
It is ot the same story for pistoleers, even Riflemen must admit that.
Compare things that should be compared
So how about comparing a Laser Rifle to Scout Blaster ? Those seem reasonably common.
We should only discuss these things for Master level at first, then try to balance the profession progress.
While this is right, we could also compare both Novices and go up step by step.
Oh, and keep in mind you are ruining the only pool that we can't buff or heal.
At a cost that ruins my very own pool I cannot buff or heal. I'd say that's a fair deal.
Master Rifleman is way overpowered too if we consider its speed mods, do you realise you are firing at a higher rate than me with some of my DX2 ?
You are right, that shouldn't be. Rifles should fire slow but with high damage. The slowness is comming, see the 3 sec hard cap. If the hard caps are 0.5 for pistols and 3.0 for rifles, that would mean you can get off 6 pistol shots in time for a single rifle shot. I highly doubt we will see the rifle damage increase to 6x the pistol damage, because that would mean we could one shot about anyone. But we don't want to get pistol damage nerfed either, do we ? So how do we balance this ?
Balancing isn't making you untouchable, it is giving everyone a fair chance to survive / kill if they play wisely.
Exactly my point. If you catch me at <30m, I should be dead. But if I catch you at > 30m, so should you. Without any of us "kiting".
Won't comment that...
2)Up damage appropriately to compensate for the new speed cap
No, they already kill in One Shot, this Speed Cap is meant to balance their superior power, not to make them kill in One Shot even when they miss...
3)Reduce their insane mind costs
I really prefer being able to heal Mind. Problem fixed for many ppl in a single thing, nice.
4) fix the mob warping problem asap
Ah ah, of course
or allow my pet to warp on me too No kidding, it is not only a danger for Riflemen, it is a danger for everyone.
5) extra accuracy modifyers at long range
Yep, and allow them to touch you even when they miss please...they are accurate like it is, you are MOVING so you are HARD to hit. What does defense means if someone with a Rifle can hit you at will ?
6)reduction in damage they take from mellee
No, why should they be more resistant ? Their incredible power at long distance must have a price. A Sniper isn't a catcher.
I am not a fierce defender of the dly cap thing, I would prefer seeing speed mods mean somehting and being capped. Their 90 speed mod is ridiculous, much too high. Their idea to prevent Pistoleers to shot above 32m their specials is stupid too (or they shouldn't be able to shoot theirs under 32m, up to them).
Let me resume things :
They hit for 1500 easily, they hit with AP3 weapons = potential 12k dmg / hit (1500 x 2 X 2 X 2). They miss about the same rate than us at short distances, we miss much more at higher distances (not an asumption, a fact). Their speed is the same than ours : 1 sec capped.
We hit for 1k (hardly) with an AP1 pistol = potential 2k dmg when AP1 from DX2 get fixed (yeah, nerf me again). We miss like fools with our meant weapon (still the DX2). Our speed is 1 sec capped too...
Still can't see the point ? Ok : even with a composite armor at 75% (good luck) they are hitting us for more than 500. I already died in full composite armor from a Sniper for a 1200 dmg shot in my mind pool (he he, I made him waste 500, my pool is 700
). Even if they are only able to do it once every 3 seconds, they are still VERY FAR above us.They should realise they aren't meant to fight at short distance nor to solo without something to tank for them. Riflemen are meant to play grouped, their are ranged dmg support, not duelists !
I am not here to say who is who but stop asking crazy things just because someone makes it better than you. This simple ONE SHOT is enought said. As long as a profession is able to ONE SHOT, they should at least wait for others to be fixed before asking for enhancements.
For the moment, I would like to see real bugs get fixed and their speed mods being reduced. Call it a nerf if you will, I call this balancing.
You can flame me if you want, I'm conviced I'm right.
nvoigt,
You again? I thought by now you'd be reading your rifle stats in-game so you'd know what you were talking about. Alas, I cut and pasted the response below in case you missed it the first time.
You know, it's funny, because even your own correspondent says he does not lose to ANYONE, including gimped pistoleers, other than the occassional commando, and that's primarily due to commandos doing "melee" class damage. So you tell me buddy, who's asking for things that overpower them and who's trying to be brought up to balance? Answer rifles are asking for things to upset balance, pistoleers would like to achieve balance.
Here's your fearless politician in action:
I can take anyone but a commando. Im 50 percent with commandos. - From Aldeon, rifleman corresspondent on a thread from a guy who says he does just fine with riflemen the way they are:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=17277
So, you need:
Lower HAM costs (looks like the original poster handles his HAM fairly well through experimentation and power ups and weapon selecion..novel..it's one of your few weaknesses)
More powerful T21
Reduced melee damage (presumably so you can make the 50/50 on commando 100/0...nice..another one of your few weaknesses)
Pistols nerfed (because obviously pure pistoleers are getting their a**es handed to them by rifleman..)
What else...cover needs to be better..but hey, that's a legit one.
Fix mob warping (Hey, another REAL issue..how about sticking to real issues rather than trying to make up weakenesses and nerf others?)
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Yeah, makes perfect sense. You would like to have superiority in every situation, even the commando situation...lovely. Yeah, really a class act you guys.
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nvoigt says: Rifleman effectivly cannot hit anything closer than 30m with a rifle. Which is fine. It's just a bit unbalanced that I can hit anything with my Scout Blaster at 60m with specials without problems.
No, YOU can't hit anything closer than 30m because you don't know how to play a rifleman.
Point: Spraysticks not only have a fast firing rate, but also have a ...drumroll.....IDEAL RANGE OF 30m.
Wow, you mean you can' t use the T21 sniper cannon as accuractely up close and you have to actually use a weapon desgined for closer range fighting. GOOD GODS! The tactics involved in that are so complex!!
Wait...SG82...35m ideal range,
You mean ANOTHER rifle has better accuracy at around 30m? Is this really news to you?
Please, keep shooting at us with your T21 at close range, and let us get into close range. Do you know how to kite? If so, then you NEED To learn how to kite someone to stay inside your ideal range, be it 60m, or 30m. As Aldeon points out, if you're having trouble killing every other profession in PvP, you MUST be doing something wrong. I mean, go read that post..I dont even think the original post is from a master rifleman..lol.
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Bottom Line: Your profession correspondent is calling for ludicrous nerfs on professions he already perceives as weaker than his profession, he's not being accurate in his statements on accuracy/range, and he's not accepting that it's simply bad form to ask for nerfs on others when instead he could focus on his own profession..one that he's already outlined ways to eliminate all of their weaknesses. very nice. Very nice. You on the other hand are still hung up on not understanding ideal range. There will be a test on this at 5PM your forum, I expect you to ace it since we've been over this twice already. (there wont really be a test, but we should, shouldn't we?)