Pistoleer Archive

My suggestion to this issue was to give BHs a 'scatter pistol accuracy/speed' mod while pistoleers got a 'everything except scatter (and maybe launcher) pistol accuracy/speed' mod. There's a 'general aiming mod' and 'weapon specific mod', so presumably this can be done, and have them stack independently with the marksman mods.

If they add more BH-specific pistols, they'd have to expand the skill, of course, so the actual title would probably be 'Bounty Hunter Pistol Accuracy' and 'Generic Pistol Accuracy' or something.

Jaegen, first of all, thanks!

Secondly, I'm glad I'm not the first person to come up with this general concept. I know there is also some favor for a system like this in the Carbineer forum, because the Carbineers that earn Bounty Hunter skills in order to max their characters are few and far between, but are often sighted as a reason that Carbineers don't need any work (and do they ever. . . have you seen that POS the Devs gave them as their elite gun????).

So you guys aren't alone in this thinking, the Carbineers aren't alone in this thinking, and the Riflemen aren't alone in this thinking. . . wow, we all agree on something. Someone sticky this post as the first/last time it'll ever happen.

Now, I completely agree that no Profession in the game is truly "stand alone". That's why you have enough skill points to Master three and change. Even Bounty Hunters have enough points left over to grab a bit of Medic or Entertainer (they already get the often-bought Exploration line in Scout in their pre-reqs) to round themselves out a bit more. And I can understand the argument that since Bounty Hunters have the least "dabbler" points, they need to be largely self-sufficient.

Riflemen are more and more often turning either to Pistol or one of the Brawler Elite trees to deal with their up-close-and-personal fighting issues. Some of us grab some Pistol Whip, others take a bit of TKA. Others still grab Swordsman, so they can continue to hit the Mind Pool (otherwise those first shots are wasted). In that respect Riflemen have MORE options for dabbling, because they DON'T have the option of grinding into one of the Bounty Hunter trees to get huge +Skill mods. And as I said, I am glad we do NOT.

It is one thing to dabble or to branch out into other Professions to keep your character competative. I think that's a great thing. But when there is ONE Profession that EVERYONE branches out into, that encourages cookie-cutter-ism and decreases the variety/interest of the game. I think the real problem is that people are going into Bounty Hunter NOT to be a Bounty Hunter, but to be a better Pistoleer. There are skills in Bounty Hunter that DIRECTLY INCREASE Pistoleer and Carbineer. It's a subtle difference than a Rifleman taking TKA or a Doctor taking a combat profession because in either of those cases the character is a true hybrid. It's a Rifleman/TKA or a Doctor/Carbineer.

But the people who are snagging Bounty Hunter +Skill mods are Pistoleers or Carbineers. Nothing about them is Bounty Hunter related. They are using Bounty Hunter mods to increase their own professione BEYOND the normal limits of those Professions. That is the part I believe is unabalancing.

I think you hit it on the head when yous said:

Anyway, I'd like to think multiple professions ARE taken into account in some way, but in the end, maybe it's too complex to balance.

At some point, it DOES get too hard to balance. And I can see how, at the time, the system the Devs came up with for these +Skill mods was reasonable and made sense. But as in most of these games, not even the most clever Devs can predict what a true power-gaming number cruncher can do with the tools laid before them. Remember, in Beta, Bounty Hunter was s distant shell of a Profession, hammered out right before the game went live. There was no testing of what those skills could do when stacked.

We've seen the test. Quite frankly, it's scary.

I'm going to re-re-re-revise the proposal a little more and take it to the Carbineers and the Bounty Hunters. I am pretty sure the Carbineers will approve, and I think I can get ENOUGH of the Bounty Hunters to approve as well. We'll have to see, then, if the Devs will, ya know, read it.

Speaking as a pistoleer/BH that never wanted to be BH but the best pistoleer around, i can tell you i agree with your ideas.

However, the balancing issue will work if, and only if, the speed equation is addressed.

Yes, the bonuses of the marksman professions sould stack, with every other bonuses given to elite professions (theroots of a tree with many branches).

No, the bonuses of each elite professions should not stack with each other (BH/carbineer, BH/pistoleer, BH/pistoleer/commando, and all the other combinations possible).

But 2 things are paramount for this to work

First give speed and accuracy bonuses to the smuggler lines of pistol, and the novice commando box at least.

Second, and most important the speed equation should be either revisited, or some bonuses lowered for certain classes.

If the speed bonuses or the speed equation are not modified, the speed bonus of a master marksman/master riffle-man is too high and would break the balance thus achieved with the non stacking of elite professions bonuses.

Anyway my 2 cents....

Ossi

Master pistoleer/expert BH (who would love to be just master pistoleer)

Ossi, as I play a Smugger as a sometimes-alt, I have also called for the Smugglers to get their own XP type (and blaster type) so that they can remain competative without having to cross-over all of their skill sets as well. In fact, I think the suggestion of using the Westar-34 (Jango Fett's) Pistol for Smugglers would work very well, in quite the same way that my above suggestion would work. If people still want to get Bounty Hunter for Eyeshot or Smuggler for Last Ditch, they should be able to. But they should NOT be stacking the mods.

As for the speed formula iteself. . . hell yes it needs to be looked at. But even if it is "fixed" it will still be obscene for moonlighters.

the people complaining about being whipped on by pistols is the Hybrids, people talk about nerfing pistol its really those BH hybrids.

People dont understand PVP at all. You get Krayt Composite made up to 70% protects with proper resources Krayt scales and slice..

Now a FW with no AP vs 70% protects is not going to kill anyone anytime soon.

Pistoleers scratch these people, People know nothing of PVP it seems to me

Displaced, we haven't always agreed but I think we ARE on the same page here. Glad to see it.

If I read you right, you're saying that we need to STOP the Pistoleer/BH hybrid "Uber-PvPer" class, because they cause normal Pistoleers to take a lot of heat.

And yes, people do need to understand how armor works better, I think people complain about that quite a bit because they don't want to learn the system. Although we've found some conflicting Dev posts about armor lately. . . that and Armor-less players are bugged, which I think adds to the confusion.

Anyhow, back on topic, yes. Removing this ugly hybrid's Ridiculous Skill Levels would go a long way towards making all the combat classes involved more balanced.

Aden, thank you for the thoughtful post.

I suspect that nearly every single person on the Pistoleer forum would agree with your proposal.

We want that stuff not to stack, without a doubt,and also we want useful stuff placed in our tree so we have some reason to keep all these worthless boxes of Pistoleer.

Thanks for coming to our forum and posting such a good post. I hope you bring this much good sense and thoughtfulness to the conversations on the Rifleman forums as well.

Well I think its fair to say Devs are confused.. Hell look at pistol melee D 2.. its the biggest joke in the game lol

Zne, the truth is that I AGREE with most everything you said in your last post. I don't care if someone wants to grab some Pistoleer and some Bounty Hunter. The problem I have is with people MASTERING Pistoleer (which should be as fast and as accurate as they can get with a Pistol) and then taking all of the +Skill mods from Bounty Hunter and adding them on. All I am saying is that skills can compliment each other, even augment each other. But you shouldn't be able to buy +Skill mods from ONE Professionthat add with the +Skills from ANOTHER profession unless they are directly in line with each other (like Marksman/Pistoleer).

Well, only two things make BH pistol and pistoleer a stellar combination, worth dropping everything for.

#1 it allows you to hit speed cap, like our riflemen counterparts can already do without having to add BH skils and drain their skill points almost to nothing.

#2 Eyeshot.

#1 is most important overall, without it, pistoleers are a complete JOKE next to dabbler pistol and master rifle users.

#2 is mostly for PvP, but honestly, it's also one of the best PvP specials. Having both torsoshot and eyeshot is preferrred maybe, since torso will do more raw damage from DOT, but eyeshot is used first to apply the blind effect (the secret to BHs having good defense).

#2is being nerfed/moved, #1 "might" be changed to be more balanced (no one has faith that it will happen in a balanced fashion..wish is my view as well).

That alone might shift templates more than enough. I know many pistoleers that would prefer NOT to have BH, if pistoleer was a complete combat profession in it's own right. We don't like the stacking, form the perspective that we'd rather be effective with just master pistoleer, but right now, stacking is the only option for pistol users (for the most part). If speed no longer caps, and pistol special attacks get a BIG boost (and work), we could be much, much closer to "balance". The really die hard pistol users drop pistoleer except for 1-2 boxes, the rest is a waste for "real" effective pistol usage (on average). pistoleer/smug is not bad, but really only uses accuracy/speed, the rest is sort of a waste.

That assumes carbine specials are fixed, a similar issue, that speed is BALANCED, and that rifles get their own issues with warping/mind cost, resolved.

I see what you are saying Aden, but one main point about Master Pistoleer/Expert BHs is they don't have ANY extra skill points. They are the ultimate fighter class, but they have to sacrifice medic, ranger, CH, etc. If you are saying they are too strong I disagree wholeheartedly. They are supposed to be strong. Riflemen and Pistoleers can put points into other professions to strengthen themselves in other equally benefitial ways. Now if your argument is saying 'why doesn't Rifleman have a similar option?' then I will agree this could be done. I think it would be good to give every fighting profession the option of further mastering their battle skills. I think they should put more Rifleman skills in Ranger. I agree that combining the points from both Pistoleer and BH gives them an advantage. Do I think it should be changed? No. I think Medic and Creature Handlers are an advantage too. Its like I said before you can't really worry about balancing the overall picture when individual professions still need work. Rifleman needs a ton of work I know. My point is once they fix Rifleman I don't think you will need to complain about Pistoleer/BHs anymore.

- Znel

Well, if you want to go back far enough into development, Riflemen used to have something like this. The LLC used to be the Lightning Rifle, and before that was just a Rifle Cert at Bounty Hunter. It's gone and I am kind of glad.

My issue isn't whether or not they are paying for it dearly. My issue is whether it should be possible at all. And yes, if you take BH Pistol IV and Pistoleer, you have 13 points left. But sacrifice BH Pistol IV and you've got Novice Medic (with StimB's hitting 400 per heal now).

In a broader sense, however, it doesn't matter to me what they are giving up for this advantage. The fact is that if this one specific skillset can DOMINATE almost every other Marksman combination, everyone is going to play this ONE skillset. That's disbalanced, and the Devs have always acted in the past to prevent that sort of thing from happening. It's one of THEIR priorities. I am wondering why they change things to prevent one "Super-Setup" but not another. Maybe they don't realize.

Maybe they don't truly understand the pain of the math. Heh.

I disagree with the opinion that BHs should be the outright strongest combat proffesion because you use more skill points. You are given the best of all rifles,pistols and carbiners but if you use solely a pistol vs a pistolier the pistolier should win because he has specialized in that weapon and you havent. Now what smart BHs do is use the best tactic to counter a rifle or pistolier so he wins his fair share of battles. BH speciality is veriety (hybrid) and not in one thing(elite). Now if BHs werent so effective useing a pistol or carbines and LLC i would ahve no problem lessing your skill points but as it is your practiclly a master pistolier, Carbiner and commando. Well thats my opinion hehe