Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The Riflemen Still Want to Kite Us
HighRoller3K wrote:As Philosopher said, a hard range cap is kite food, and should never happen. I would however concede that our accuracy modifiers outside of 32m should be such that it is VERY desirable for us Pistoleers to close the distance as quickly as possible. Im thinking perhaps a Master Pistoleer hitting 3/10 times, with specials, outside of 48, if not 32m. Perhaps 4/10 times in the 32-48m segement but that would be up for debate.
This would especially be the case vs Riflemen with the cover bonus, when it is fixed.
ur86d mentioned melee'rs tagging from 15m...this is news to me...if its correct, I'd like to see our dodge bonuses work vs melee attacks if they don't already. We will need that kind of thing if we are to have any chance of surviving within 32m vs melee classes.
I like this idea.
The special to-hit modifier is not affected by range, eg BodyShot1 give you a +20% (or +25% depending on whose data) to hit at max range and at all other range.
2 problem with this. 1) it's not affected by range and that's not right. At max range, it should drop to 5% or even 0% and at ideal range it should be 25%. 2) a +25% to-hit is equivalent to a +50 accuracy modifier which is to say you're hitting as well as some 5-7 boxes higher than you (eg someone with 1,250,000 xp more than you).
Also, the to-hit modifier are additive. Shooting on the move is a -15%, but you'll just add back in 25% for special. Thus you can spam special at max range on the move and hit fairly often. The to-hit modifier should be multiplicative. So shooting on the move not only reduce your base effectively, but also your special effectiveness.
Noneof these areright and should be fixed.
The other problem is that the weapon range modifier is linear from ideal down to 0 and ideal out to max range. For the rifleman, with some ideal at 60m +17 mod and max of -80, the slope is steeeeep. That should be fix so the slope is more in line with other weapon (eg the max range modifier should be about -30 for the slope to be the same as pistol point blank to ideal slope).
But the main point of the post is why are rifleman calling for nerf when they should just be calling out to address the problem. If it's accuracy at long range, call for to fix that. If it's the speed cap crap, just call out to fix that. Why, why, call for skill nerf?
First of all i think caps SUCK and and should be enforced purely through accuracy. Rifleman dont want to be gods but are trying to find an effective way to do battle. The idea of the rifleman is that we are prone/covered at a distance and shoot slow and one shot kill.
Now the reality... The devs dont want us to one shot kill so this loss in speed scares us becauseourtop dmg is also caped by the devsso we dont one shot. Rifleman have a VERY limited optimum rangeand we arent ment to be kiting soone of our problems is missing our shots. This is really hurtfull on NPC melee mobs since we have NO way to stop them other than warning shot which doesnt always work. Ournow slow dmg is also caped because ofpvp so we get OWNED in PvE, just ask any novice rifleman.
Idontlike the95% speed reduction, what i want is a new speed equation that balances speed with dmg so all elite classes do about the same dmg over time, so be defualt rifles should have moredps because we use mindto dorandom HAMdmgunless our HAM is WAY reduced so we can SPAM more specials like pistols. I know this will piss people off but rifleman need to be compinsated forusing mind dmg...
Rifleman do have problems because ALL NPCs mobs and most PCs can be under 30m in a few seconds and that means almost instant death for us.I think we need to be slightly compisated for that fact buthow is another debate.IMO rifleman should have NO bonuses to shoot while moving to prevent kiting so we can have bonuses to hit hyper accuractly maybe or an extended range outward or inward?
Im trying to bring balance.. this way rifleman cant kitebut have a ranged advantage. I agree the speed system atm sucks and needs to be reconfigured.
Now what do pistols get, sorry about some of my ignorace maybe you can help me with that hehe... Pistols should be slightly more dps thancarbiners but less than rifles.Pistols also should ahvelower accuracy than carbiners(i think its the opposite atm)becausepistolscan spam more specials per HAM. Your range is ment to be 0 to 32 but with melee that might be a little to small, i understand that. You also get more bonuses to run and gun so you can out run melee though.
Soto accurcatly depicked the truedamage over timeyou need to look into the right veriables which are... Dmg, speed, accuracy and HAM costs need to be balanced between ALL elite combat profession so they are equil yet different.
Well enough said =)
Both men sort of saunter back and forth for a moment, trying to gauge when the other man will dive for his empty weapon so they can load up and cut the other down. Then both dive for their weapons at the same time. We see both men slam a round into their weapons, but before Ramone can bring his rifle to bear, The Man With No Name has him covered with his .45, loaded and aimed dead bang.
-A Fistful of Dollars
I very much believe they ought to be able to get us from range as we can at point blank. And it bears repeating. If they want a hard cap of thirty meters, they need to put their money where their mouth is and be ready to take a minimum range hardcap so they can’t shoot at anything WITHIN 30 meters. I’d rather we all just campaigned to have our professions FIXED, but it seems no-one wants to hear that.
What it really what it comes to is tactics folks. Or what looks like a basic misunderstanding on the part of the Devils and the Riflemen as to what their class is meant for. People were calling out for a bit of clarification as to a sniper’s intended role. It may help to clarify things if I restate what I said in a few of the posts on the Rifleman Board, where the replies and the like were flying back and forth so fast, I doubt anyone read a word I said.
On page three of that thread, I said:
“To be honest, number crunching bores the hell out of me. If I was meant to be a mathematician, I’d have been born with a math co-processor installed. I look at it as a matter of combat tactics and the intent of the weapon involved. Bounty Hunters are meant to hunt down and incap people. That’s what they do. That’s why they have incap shots like Eye-Shot and have to take all those Scout skills as well, so they know and understand the meaning of hunting down prey or a mark.
Pistol Users learn to fight and shoot accurately with their chosen weapon. Inherent in their fighting style is the idea that pistols will be used at close quarters because power and accuracy go down at range. That doesn’t mean that you can’t hit the broadside of a barn at 33 meters. You ask any shooter on a pistol range and they’ll tell you it’s possible to shoot something further away than that. Your chances will be lower, but talent and ability can make up for that to some degree.
Rifle Users learn to fight and shoot accurately with their chosen weapon. Inherent in their fighting style is the idea that in order to hit a target at longer ranges, use heavier ammunition to do more damage and increase accuracy, the gun is made larger, heavier and longer to ensure that the target receives an incapacitating shot from the shooter. Such a weapon makes it impractical for head to head close-up shooting. That’s why pistols and carbines were invented. But does that mean that rifles aren’t effective at closer ranges? Hardly. If anything, a rifle at point blank range is all the more devastating. But that’s assuming that you can bring one to bear in close quarters.
Tactically, if you’re engaging in combat, you’re going to be outfitted with different weapons and training to engage in a myriad of situations. If you are sniping someone, and your position is made, the very first thing your target is going to do is either take cover and try to snipe you with their rifle, or if their rifle is unavailable, to close distance with you and turn your advantage over them into a hindrance. That’s why any soldier you field in modern combat is going to have a rifle AND a pistol and the training to use both. It’s unrealistic to think any differently. For that matter, modern soldiers are still equipped with Combat knives for melee or utility use, and ‘boop’ under the barrel grenade launchers for heavy weapons exchanges.”
On page 5 of that probably infamous thread, I said:
“It’s been mentioned that Riflemen don’t want to be slow Pistoleers. No-one’s expecting you to be. It’s been mentioned that you want to be the sniper out under-cover capping the headshot. Fine. Why are you worrying about engaging in a one on one PvP if you were trying to take them out with one shot? It’s been mentioned that Pistoleers speedy three shots in comparison to Riflemen’s one makes it an all or nothing game for the Rifleman to get that shot at range the first time. You mention that your run and gun skill blows dead monkeys. When was sniping ever a run & gun profession? Sniping is difficult enough standing still, nevermind running about.
Umm, hello? The point of a sniper is to take someone out efficiently. One shot, one kill, no muss, no fuss, concealed and safe from harm. Aldeon, you say that the Devils aren’t going to increase your damage to the point that you can one or two shot someone at range. The point you should be making to the Devils is that’s the whole POINT of a Sniper class in the first place. And if they aren’t going to give you the damage to make one shot or two shot kills, then you need to be campaigning for the tools to make that possible at the damage levels you can squeeze out of them. If you don’t make your shot as a sniper, you’re SUPPOSED to be screwed. Your op is fragged if you get made.
That’s when you get your secondary weapon out and get ready for the slugging match, cos after you’re made, your target isn’t supposed to sit like a good little mob and say “My heavens, what large mosquitoes they have in these parts.” They’re gonna hop up and try to take out their aggressor. At least any smart prey will cos you can’t run from a sniper. They WILL get you. They’ll follow you and plant one in your back at range. With a Sniper as an opponent, the game is take him out before he gets you.”
It would seem that from what I read over there, the Riflemen think it’s distinctly unfair that their prey would try to charge them and run into their fire instead of run away. That’s combat tactics folks. Not foolishness. What they need to be doing is campaigning to get an equal amount of damage in one shot for the same amount of shots we can do in the time it takes them to fire again. That way, we can do 4 shots at 250 and they can do one for a grand in the same space of time. Then it’s a matter of who’s the better tactician. Or who can run or dodge faster. Or who gets the first shot in. If they get someone by sneaking up on em and popping them for a grand in the head, more power to em. That’s how thay’re meant to operate. The whole idea of a sniper in run and gun combat however, is absurd.
On page 3, I said this:
“Would I suck in PvP? At close quarters, I might. With the addition of Bounty Hunter Skills, I’d be able to defend myself in a close quarters situation if I’m made. But let’s look at it. PURE Snipers are not meant to be combat units. A sniper is a support unit. They stay back with the medics or in concealment and surgically remove specific targets from the equation. Like that Medic on their team that’s healing all their tanks. Or that squad leader that’s hitting them all with mind buffs and target commands. But realistically, a PURE Sniper with no cross-training is useless once discovered.”
Now I take exception to the idea that a Pistoleer should have to become a Bounty Hunter as well or a carbineer to be more than helpless if it comes down to a slugging match. But a Pistoleer is a combat unit in its own right. I have no problem at all with the idea of pulling out my rifle and using it on someone shooting at me from range. I haven’t, after all, surrendered my Marksman Rifle Skills. Just my Marksman Carbine. So I can do you close. And I can do you long.
A Pure Rifleman/Sniper, however, has no business being upset about the idea of only being able to do someone at long range. I’d suggest they keep their Marksman Pistol Line to have a hold out in close quarters if they need it the same way I do with the Marksman Rifle Line. Otherwise, they’re choosing to limit themselves to a single weapon. And they deserve what they get. To hear them complain about the other classes, you’d think they never heard of switching guns on the fly. That’s what the hotbars are for, G.
I did make suggestions I thought might improve their class. I wanted to be constructive.
I suggested an equivalent of a Rifle Melee defense. (If we can pistol whip a Pikket to the ground, then they sure as hell ought to be able to swat it out of the park with a rifle butt.) I suggested a Bayonet power-up for their weapon so they might have something to deal with those critters that warp right up to em or rush em. I suggested that when they take cover as a sniper, that they not show up on radar or have their names visible. How do you snipe anyone when they can see you on radar? Snipers should know how to mask themselves from that as part of their sniper skills. Which should stack with Scout or Ranger Skills if they took those. Think how awesome a Rifleman/Ranger combination could be…
As it stood, it seems they were only interested in arguing with Jaegen and accuse him of being uncompromising while the reverse was what was evident to anyone who can read. Ahh well. I mentioned it in another thread. SOE will throw sops to the class that whines the most by nerfing other classes to be as broken as the whiner’s. As long as people concentrate on nerfing someone else instead of having their class fixed, the arguments will continue. SOE will continue to drag their butt on fixing anything cos we’re to distracted with each other to focus our ire on the fact that this game is far from complete or ready to play. The nerfs will continue. And by the time we actually get a dewback or a speeder to ride, we’ll be doing ride or drive-bys against durni with those rock and slingshot weapons they used in the Flintstones. Cos for ALL OF US, our offensive capabilities will have been downgraded to the point that it’ll lethal to engage it without a critter or a speeder to run the hell away from it with.
"You can get a lot further with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone."
Al Capone
The Zeltron Zabrak, Rookery DeCarabas, GunDancer
Corona Valinor, Corellia, Eclipse
For a full image of Rookery DeCarabas holding a DL-44 and a Bryar Pistol see:
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=479118&Start=1&Artist=WinterRose&ByArtist=Yes
they need to put their money where their mouth is and be ready to take a minimum range hardcap so they can’t shoot at anything WITHIN 30 meters.
uhm... you are completely right. You are marksman, so go grab a non-cdef rifle and hit something within 30 meters. In case you are too lazy ( like me at times ) I'll tell you what happens:
/aim
/headshot1
... you miss
... target charges you
/aim
/headshot1
...target hits you for 500 damage ( 200*2.5 because you hit yourself with your rifle when thecat clawedyou )
/macro to switch to pistol and clear queue, won't survive the next hit otherwise
...target misses
/bodyshot
...target misses
/bodyshot
...target hits you for 200 damage
/bodyshot
...target dies, rifleman gets 0 rifle XP, 250 pistol XP
Congrats. Did I mention I reached my 200K pistol XP cap after master markman way before I became novice rifleman for 175K rifle xp ?
Rifleman effectivly cannot hit anything closer than 30m with a rifle. Which is fine. It's just a bit unbalanced that I can hit anything with my Scout Blaster at 60m with specials without problems.
Phuobar,
The special to-hit modifier is not affected by range, eg BodyShot1 give you a +20% (or +25% depending on whose data) to hit at max range and at all other range.
2 problem with this. 1) it's not affected by range and that's not right. At max range, it should drop to 5% or even 0% and at ideal range it should be 25%.
It does man, we've been saying this over and over and over. Pistoleers have ONE AR1 weapon with a 64m range. It's ideal range is 8m. At 64m we have -90 accuracy. That's -40 accuracy after specials. It's STILL less accurate than a rifle at 64m. Doesn't a T21 have 0 at 64m? Hrm +5 accuracy vs -40 accuracy. I'd say favor goes to rifles...as desgined. Please tell me you understand how to use ideal ranges to modify accuracy. Remember, pistols are easy to use because when they are used, they do standard damage. Rifles are far more effective when they do hit, and as you see here, they aer also more accurate at range. If you go prone, you add even more accuracy, if you AIM, you add even more accuracy, and you know, most people I know that fire rifles, have to aim first..you know? Even standing rifles are more accurate in that example.
nvoigt,
Rifleman effectivly cannot hit anything closer than 30m with a rifle. Which is fine. It's just a bit unbalanced that I can hit anything with my Scout Blaster at 60m with specials without problems.
No, YOU can't hit anything closer than 30m because you don't know how to play a rifleman.
Point: Spraysticks not only have a fast firing rate, but also have a ...drumroll.....IDEAL RANGE OF 30m.
Wow, you mean you can' t use the T21 sniper cannon as accuractely up close and you have to actually use a weapon desgined for closer range fighting. GOOD GODS! The tactics involved in that are so complex!!
Wait...SG82...35m ideal range,
You mean ANOTHER rifle has better accuracy at around 30m? Is this really news to you?
Please, keep shooting at us with your T21 at close range, and let us get into close range. Do you know how to kite? If so, then you NEED To learn how to kite someone to stay inside your ideal range, be it 60m, or 30m. Goodgravy, you already hit mind pool, have insane mind bleeds, dizzy/posture change, better armor rating weapons, better range (shown above), and now rifleman want:
1. Even MORE accuracy so they can run around shooting long range rifles from the hip..accurately..lol
2. To take less melee damage when hit by melee attacks.
3. Pistols to be less effective.... HAHA, thanks for the love fools!
Oh please, tell us what you trying to do....turn rifles into God Mode? What? Cover is getting a boost too? Good grief, and you STILL think pistols should be nerf? Right. My advice is go back to the rifleman board and quit trying to get other professions nerfed. It's embarassing for you guys. Getting others nerfed is not something you should strive for...especiallly when you are disproven so very easily.
Bounty hunters already are a more effective mind pool profession than you, if you really want to be a better rifleman, go BH, that should keep you busy.
Jaegen88 wrote:Phuobar,
The special to-hit modifier is not affected by range, eg BodyShot1 give you a +20% (or +25% depending on whose data) to hit at max range and at all other range.
2 problem with this. 1) it's not affected by range and that's not right. At max range, it should drop to 5% or even 0% and at ideal range it should be 25%.
It does man, we've been saying this over and over and over. Pistoleers have ONE AR1 weapon with a 64m range. It's ideal range is 8m. At 64m we have -90 accuracy. That's -40 accuracy after specials. It's STILL less accurate than a rifle at 64m. Doesn't a T21 have 0 at 64m? Hrm +5 accuracy vs -40 accuracy. I'd say favor goes to rifles...as desgined. Please tell me you understand how to use ideal ranges to modify accuracy. Remember, pistols are easy to use because when they are used, they do standard damage. Rifles are far more effective when they do hit, and as you see here, they aer also more accurate at range. If you go prone, you add even more accuracy, if you AIM, you add even more accuracy, and you know, most people I know that fire rifles, have to aim first..you know? Even standing rifles are more accurate in that example.
What Phuobar is saying is that a special with +50 accuracy mod adds +50 accuracy regardless of the range mods. What he's proposing is that the special would add +50 accuracy -if- the weapon range mod at that range is 0, and it would go down if the range mod dropped lower than that (if your range mod at that range is -70, the bonus from special might only be +15 instead of +50). What this would mean is that using a special would give you significantly improved accuracy over autofire at optimal, but your hit rate would converge on your autofire hit rate as you went to the extreme limits of your range.
I'm not convinced that this actually solves anything, but I think there's a significant problem if most pistoleer specials have +50 accuracy while riflemen specials have much lower values (either that, or riflemen are supposed to be less accurate but more damaging). So something does need to be addressed.
Bounty hunters already are a more effective mind pool profession than you, if you really want to be a better rifleman, go BH, that should keep you busy.
The sad thing about SWG is, you are completely right. I do go BH and take up eyeshot, because with eyeshot and a marksman pistol, I'm the most effective long range mind damage dealer. I'm not kidding, just 3.5K Combat XP short.
Kiting ? Yes, I know how to do this. Honestly, have you ever seen a deer hunter shoot, stand up, run away and shoot again over his back until the deer following him is dead ? This is SciFi, but that doesn't mean it has to be that unrealistic.
Ideal range of 30m ? Yes, I do know those weapons. Small damage numbers. You get in one shot, that won't kill a mob. Then it's upon you with 2.5x damage. Oh, sure, I can kite. But you know what ? Kiting works, but it's still the worst piece of bull I have ever seen implemented in a game. It's not fun at all. I'm a rifleman. Not an armed sprinter.
We don't want to kite you. We don't want to kite anything, if it were for the rifleman, we would trade kiting for a proper rifle implementation anytime. We want to kill you if you manage to end up inside 40-60 meters of us. Do you think that's too much ?Being proficient in our own profession ?
Kiting sadly is a tactic that works. But not an excuse for a **edit**ed up weapon range implementation.
Please, keep shooting at us with your T21 at close range, and let us get into close range.
Lucky me, the developers already thought of my inability to grasp simple tactics and did me a favor. We don't even have T21s on my server. The example was using a SG82 at 30 meters. If you are master marksman, try it.