Pistoleer Archive

And working all the way up to Master Pistoleer till you reach that full +5 we are talking about will definately be earning it.

Zerona, experience with one weapon does not make you proficient in another. After years of shooting with pistols I can tell you it doesnt transfer over to a rifle. Now the things I learned before I shot with a pistol, judging distance, windage, velocity do translate over but that is the basics of all projectile weaponry right down to a slingshot. However using a slingshot as a kid didnt make me faster with a pistol. Handling a pistol did.

Why is it futile to bring common sense from RL into a game? Gravity is in RL yet we expect to have it while on Naboo and Tat. The food we eat and things we drink have a direct affect on our bodies in RL, so does it with all the kinds of food/drink and stims we have in game.

However, I digress, it still makes sense that a rifleman shoulndt have to pickup a pistol to get his speed bonus neither should a carbineer. We should be required to undertake more experience with our weapon of choice than wasteskill in weapon tree that you more than likely would love to surrender to recover points in order to spend them on your chosen profession. Whatare the possibilities if you could recover your skillpoints spent in the rifle/carbine trees? What if you could use them to actually support the profession you have chosen? Before responding, think about the possibilities you could have. How would you spend those points? Would it make you a better combatant? Would it increase yourexperience of the game?

Lets be open minded and consider the possibilities. Im not proposing a shortcut or less work, as long as we still had to do the work to get the +5 speed, and slowly balanced it out acrosstraining to a Master Pistoleer wouldnt that make more sense than hunting down womp rats and rills with your rifle/carbine just so you could get through it?

Thanks!

-Mourf

No, its not a crock. You cant argue that it doesnt make sense that to be better with a type of weapon you would use that type of weapon. Which is why when I want to further my skill with a pistol I dont pick up a rifle. The general abilities you mentioned earlier are just that, general. To become better (fasterin this case) you must move beyond the general, beyond the basics and thats what we are talking about here.

It is not futile for the reasons I stated above. Certain things must exist in order to have order. Just saying "it doesnt matter because its a game" is a crock. If that were accapteble you could apply it to some of the issues Pistoleers are vocal about, like speed, who should be better with a pistol, and certain balance issues. We could blanket every person who cried foul with something they didnt see rightthat wasnt a bug with "its not reality, its just a game". If we are to accept that answer then we might as well stop arguing for change with anything that is not declared a bug by the devs, after all its a game.

Thanks!

-Mourf

"You cant argue that it doesnt make sense that to be better with a type of weapon you would use that type of weapon. "

If you're not gona make any sense there's no reason to post. This is gibberish. Trust me when I say Joe, who has shot pistols for 2 years and never touched any other weapon is going to do alot better with a rifle than Jim who has never touched any guns ever and picks up a rifle for the first time.

Because it gives you a way, with effort, to further improve your skills. Much like going for Master Brawler enhances a Master TKA, going for Master Artisan helps a Master Weaponsmith, and so on, you always have the ability to gain a bit of extra edge by increasing your breadth of knowledge. In our case, it would mean going completely through the Support Lines and all of the weapon lines, you gain the title and skills of a Master Marksman, whose name alone should justify the additional speed.

---

not to be a stickler, but being a master artisan doesn't help a master weaponsmith, all the bonuses r artisan only.... its not a "general efftiveness/experimentation" as it should be, Agree with master brawler/helping Tka, otherwise good point.....

I think that there is a subtle point that is being overlooked here, while there is an advantage to gaining that golden plus 5 speed there is also a disadvantage to the pistoleer. That disadvantage being giving up 34? ptns into gaining the extra speed. Thats 2 full trees in another profesion. Alot of people talk about the strenght of the pistoleer being our ability to spend our points in other areas, doesnt giving up 2 full trees just so we can get closer to the speed cap.. well seem alittle counter to our strength? Furthermore, if we are the master of the pistol why do we need skills outside of our dev given requirements to .. urm.. well.. urm become better than a master?Shouldnt being a master mean you have learned all that is possible to know about a profesion?

So if master marksman is a requirement to be a "master" pistoleer, shouldnt that be part of our prereqs? Or maybe it means we should have all the skillsthat we need to be a "master pistoleer" in our profesion.

I dont want to rag on you Jaegen, you really care about the pistoleer, and devote alot of your time to helping us out, but shouldnt the fact that we need to learnanother (or two) pistol related profesions to max out our pistol skills seem very wrong to you? It seems very wrong to me that as a master pistoleer, I realize that double and triple stacking mods make my lowly master pistoleer title look as shinny and worth while as a toy prize from a crackerjack box. I would like to believe that many of us would love to see a day when a master pistoleer was actually given due respect and abilities that the name masterwould indicate we have earned. Perhapse there is some way you can convience the devs that we are master pistol users, not just some lowley and seedy stepingstone some where on the path to being deadly with a pistol.

Thank you Shadow, thats exactly my point. It makes more sense for Pistoleers to not have to go outside their profession to become better (or the "Master of the Pistol" as you put it) with a pistol. If we can gain the abilities offered to the Pistoleer (here were talking about +5 speed) through Pistoleer skill trees then we can spend our points in support of our profession. This capitalizes our strength of beingable to spend our points in other areas, as many others have said. Instead of arguing about what may and may not be possible for someone, lets discuss increasing our strength by diversity. Theres no reason to invest in two skill tree's outside our profession, as Shadow has said.

-Mourf

"Certain things must exist in order to have order. Just saying "it doesnt matter because its a game" is a crock."

It's not that "it doesnt matter because its a game". It's that 'reality has to give way to game balance' in this case. It's not that reality doesn't matter, it's that it's important to the gamefor a master marksman to have a real advantage in terms of weapon speed.

"It makes more sense for Pistoleers to not have to go outside their profession to become better (or the "Master of the Pistol" as you put it) with a pistol."

Who is going outside the profession??? If you become a master marksman, and then go on to Pistoleer, who's to say you didn't pick up those 5 speed points using the pistol? Also, if you pick up Master Pistoleer first, who's to say that a little marksmanship training (getting you Master Marksman) wouldn't make you an even better Master Pistoleer? In real life, attaining mastery over a weapon isn't an end - there are always morethings to learn. You claim to want to bring more reality to the game, but you seem to want to make things less realistic - you want mastery over pistols to be an end to the learning process. As any real lifemaster will tell you, mastery of something only shows you how little you have learned.

Who is going outside the profession???

We are going in circles here, but Ill comment one more time. Right now any Pistoleer/Rifleman/Carbineerwho wants the extra +5 speed for their chosen weapon specializationhas to spend 34 pointson skill trees that are not related to their specialized weapon. For many of us (non BHs of course) these tress will be utilized very little, they serve as a vehicle (and an expenive one at 34 skill points) to get us +5 speed with our chosen weapon type.

You claim to want to bring more reality to the game, but you seem to want to make things less realistic - you want mastery over pistols to be an end to the learning process.

There is an end now. For Pistoleers its called Master Pistoleer. This is only in technique of course, as tactics and strategy play equally important roles and there probably is no end to different things you could try.

If your a Master Pistoleer without Master Marksman,you have to go back, pick up a rifle and a carbine so you can be better with a pistol. Read that last sentence again...doesnt sound right because it doesnt make much sense.

Instead, once you reach Master Pistoleer there should be nothing else further to spend skill points on to make your pistol technique better (don't confuse technique with tactics and strategy). This is accomplished by moving the +5 speed gain from the Master Marksman spot and distributing the 5 points between the pistol tree under marksman, novice pistoleer, the special abilities tree under pistoleer, and the master pistoleer spot. We arent talking about making anything easier to get, just letting the additional speed be gained with pistol/combat xp,rather than pistol/rifle/carbine/comabt xp.

Thanks!

-Mourf

34 points for only 5 speed? **edit** that!

Go pick up some corsec gloves, thats +3 pistol speed, you loose 2 speed but get to keep those points!

(Or get +8 speed if you go both)

Removeall weapon type specific speed and accuracy modifiers in the marksman profession. Replace them with general ranged weapon speed and accuracy modifiers in the ranged weapon support tree of the marksman profession.

Change prerequisite for smuggler to Ranged weapon support 4 and unarmed 4. Make Underworld, Slicing and Spices skill trees require Smuggling xp to level.When you makespices, slicing knives, FANs, and Molecular clamps you should get smuggling xp. In this way you would gain levels in underworld by slicing weapons and making spice....that sounds like the underworld to me and it would even explain your connections as a smuggler. Dirty fighting shouldhave specialsthat are usable with any ranged weapon and specials that are usable by any melee weapon. Dirty fighting skill tree should require combat xp. Think of the dirty fighting skill tree as an advanced general weapon skill tree....like ranged weapon support.

Since all modifiers for speed and accuracy of ranged weapons in the marksman profession are generic and usable by all ranged weapons the heavy weapons used by commandos and bounty hunters will get a rather large performance increase and therefore won't be missing so much. Damage on these weapons may need to be looked at again.

The delay effect that commandos currently experience after firing a flame special should be removed completely or reduced significantly, 9+ seconds is entirely way to long to be completely defenseless and unable to do anything except walk away (can't burst run, heal, or even speak in spatial chat currently for 9+ seconds after firing a flame special). With the reduction of the self induced delay effect the damage done by the flame thrower in the actual attack and by the flame DOT may need to be looked at again. If necessary maybe put an attack timer on flame DOT attacks instead of the self induced delay effect...at least then you could do something to defend yourself (take off heavy weapon while getting beat up) or use stimpacks to heal yourself. Ranges of commando weapons should be looked at. Ideally grenades should be low tomid range (0-30 m) weapons, Heavy Acid rifle should be mid range to long range (30-60m), and flamethrower should be low to mid range (0-30m), while launcher pistol takes up the slack everywhere else just as it is now. Heavy Acid Rifle should be balanced more like the LLC of the bounty hunter is now.

The DOTs of lower levelDOTs shouldn't stack...the highest level flame special DOT should overwrite lower level flame special attacks of the same line: /flamesingle1 DOT would be over written by /flamesingle2 DOT. This would include bleed DOTs.

All DOTs should be affected by the resistances of the armor of the creature/player that is attacked. For example ifa creatureis 95% resistant to heat anda player uses a fwg5 against that creature to bleed them then the initial healthshot will be reduced in damage or not hit at all according to the resistance of the creature's armor. The initial hit of the healthshot determines how much damage is inflicted to the creature so a low damage hit will give a low damage bleed. A similar effect would occur with all other bleed and fire DOTs.

"Right now any Pistoleer/Rifleman/Carbineerwho wants the extra +5 speed for their chosen weapon specializationhas to spend 34 pointson skill trees that are not related to their specialized weapon."

Well clearly they ARE related, since their acquisition gives you more pistol skill points. Speed is related to usage, and the more you use a weapon - any weapon - the more conversant you'll be with weapons in general. But what it really comes down to is this - the game is structured this way, and if you really need to get the most out of your pistols, you have to bite the bullet and use those skill points, wherever they are to be found. If you don't want to get them, then don't. It's as simple as that. Not everything in life is logical or fair.

"For many of us (non BHs of course) these tress will be utilized very little, they serve as a vehicle (and an expenive one at 34 skill points) to get us +5 speed with our chosen weapon type. "

Well, if you can't live without those 5 speed points, you'll spend the skill points. If you can live without them, you won't. This is just a case where you need to decide how much you want them. You seem obsessed with getting them, so get them already! Not everything in life is easy, nor should it be. No one is forcing you to get the extra 5 points.

"There is an end [to the learning process]now. For Pistoleers its called Master Pistoleer."

Wrong. Clearly this is not an end, since some skill points that affect your ability as a pistoleerare to be acquired in different skill trees. You seem to think that MasterPistoleer should be an end to all pistol training, but I don't see that rule written anywhere. Such a rule would be unrealistic anyway - there are lots of experiences we pick up in life that affect other aspects of life, and these are not necessarily (or obviously)connected.

The strength in the pistoleer not spending alot of points is that they get to choose to do other things. There is nothing that says you HAVE to be a master marksman. You can be very viable without that +5 speed. The strength is in the choice.

Changing the way marksman works wont' change the argument. If you made the master box simply have a "+5 to ranged speed" ability you're right hwere you are now. Same argument. But if you're smart you realize that is the way it is now. Marksman represents the very BASICS of weapon use. There are things you can learn about general weapons that will increase your use with a pistol. You totally confuse the issue when you start putting it in game terms as You should only have to get pistol xp.

You are comparing to real life but the problem is you don't have to spend skillpoints in real life for knowledge!!!!! Those little things you might learn abouta pistol, many of them would apply to all firearms. That is the knowledge that belongs in the 'marksman' class.

The other MAIN PROBLEM here is the fact that speed is the end all skill mod. It is rediculous to have just 1 mod be so important and so powerful that +5 would make a big difference. The speed system is F***'d up. The DPS gain from speed should be linear whereas now it is exponential. At the very least they need to cap +speed at 80.