Pistoleer Archive

Riflemen have come to troll the pistoleer boards because they aren't satisfied patting themselves on the back in their forum. At first I was worried that they may use some of this garbage data to tweak the ranges of the weapons. As another poster mentions, however, it will affect commandos, BH and us as well as a majority of marksman who prefer pistols if they mess with the range of weapons. We are a silent majority right now and I suggest the Devs Red-Headed step-children step back to their forums before they wake the sleeping giant. We got their attention once and got un-nerfed in the works. Don't make us get their attention again and get our DPS a 500% boost as well.

Dilune, call this what you will but this isnt trolling. This is a discussion. Just like Samra is posting the same replies in the rifleman forum, I'm posting them here.

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Scylla

Oaktree,

There is no conspiracy, nor secret about what's being requested.

It's simply:

Make the speed calculation....linear.

Do you understand that this is what is being asked for? If so, then you can wipe all other other notes and scribbles and "pistoleers think this or that" off your desk. If the devs had a linear calculation, then indeed, by changing damage per shot, speed of guns, damage and delay of specials, AND by controlling what professions get how much in terms of ++ speed skill mods, they do indeed, have a much easier time balancing combat.

Look at the graph, it's not JUST AT 95.

It's dependant on what your speed is, and what your weapon speed is. For rifles, it can break down as early as +80 speed, depending on your weapon.

You know, even less really, even at 75 speed with a spraystick using a 2.0 delay special, you're at the 1.0 second cap. Come on, give up defending the calculation, it's bunk. It needs to be replaced. It's not....

linear

Linear means in this case, everyone is treated "roughly" equal in terms of the way speed works..all weapons, all specials, etc. What do you have to say about TKA with +115 speed and polearm with only +75.? Thedifference in damage can be HUGE from just 5 points of speed once you approach cap. Why were TKAs given speed over +100 anyway? Makes no sense in either case. It's ludicrous, and should change IF the intent is for things to make a little sense. The #1 reason it needs to be changed is because it's not intuitive when it comes to trying to figure out balance, when the speed calculation goes haywire, NOT at +95, at as low as 50.

Please do respond to this.

I do not agree that DPS gain should be linear. It should be capped, but not linear.

Rationale, xp gain is not linear. It takes only 1,000 pistol xp to go from marksman 0/0/0/0 to 0/1/0/0 yet it take 450x time more to go from pistoleer 0/3/0/0 to 0/4/0/0. If DPS gain is linear, that mean I, as an expert pistoleer, after spending 450x more time than some noob can only improve my skill by the same amount as that noob.

It also mean there's zero reason why someone would want to climb up the skill tree when the return is to diminishing small.

Really simple example, if your weapon DPS is, say, 100, would you spend 8 weeks just to gain 10 DPS?

Furthermore, creature difficulty are not linear. Those 150 lvl kimo will eat you master pistoleer alive if all you can do is 50% more damage than some noob. Heck, it'll eat all 50 of you master pistoleers.

Since xp gain are exponential, damage gain should be proportional to that. Just cap that so there's no runaway damage.

Oaktree, I'm very busy at work, so I only have time for a short reply.

As far as I can tell, your argument is as follows:

1) Insofar as the speed equation throws DPS out of whack at high levels by permitting a Master Rifleman to fire a T21 faster than a Master Pistoleer can fire an FWG5, this is okay because ... (drum roll) Riflemen have a 2.5 melee multiplier. (?!?)

2) You don't care about any of the other bizarre effects caused by the logarthmic speed equation, like the fact that it destroys the balance among special attacks (you can fire Last Ditch, with a 9.0x damage multiplier, once per second) or renders the speed rating of weapons useless (dang, another worthless speed slice).

#1 is just laughable, from my opinion. The reason that a Master Rifleman should spit out more than 300% more damage than a Master Pistoleer is because he takes more damage from melee? Pistoleers aren't melee! Why would you balance Rifleman v. Pistoleer based on their defense against melee? That makes no sense. Come up with something better.

The fact that you either can't see or don't care about #2 is pretty sad. It's obvious to anyone who takes the time to understand how the specials and weapons have been balanced to see that the speed equation makes many of the game's variables useless, like SpecialDelayMod or WeaponSpeed. Is the speed equation still "perfectly balanced" once I drop Pistoleer, pick up Smuggler, and hit you for 1900 damage every second with Last Ditch? Think a bit more before you post.

I'll try to see you online tonight, but I'm busy at work so I'll be here for a while longer.

I do understand that Jaegon, there is a major problem with that though. Going off the assumption that current balance is to be maintained, the stats in rifles and carbines would be INSANE. It would lead to way too much 1 shotting people all over again. I just ballparked some numbers. Do you guys realizing that you are asking for rifles to have in the neighborhood of 325-625 7.5 T21's. QUESTION: IS THE 75% PVP REDUCTION 75% LESS DAMAGE OR 25% LESS DAMAGE? Assuming its 25% less damage, you are giving the rifleman the ability to land roughly 700pt avg headshots in PvP but would be balanced by the speed factor. I understand that a linear equation would be a much easier thing. Everything gets alot prettier, but I believe things will in all reality things will break down all over again.

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Scylla

Phoubar, there's a simple solution to your concern ... just because the speed _equation_ is linear doesnt mean that speed _gains_ need to be linear.

If you had a linear speed equation, you could just increase the + modifiers as you move up the tree.

You could also have a linear speed equation that results in steep increases. I can't draw a graph here, but you can have a line that is steep but isn't logarithmic.

As a side note, I didn't find it harder to level up as I got higher, personally. I found it easier. The hardest boxes for me were the Specialist (now IV) boxes in Marksman. But I agree with your point -- we don't want a Master to be only slightly more powerful than a Novice.

Oaktree, your response to Jaegen assumes that Riflemen is supposed to spit out 250% more damage than Pistoleers because of the Melee Defense Modifier(?!?).

How about you just look at the stats of the weapons themselves. Rifles have about 15 to 25 percentmore base DPS than pistols when AR is factored in ... that same advantage should be preserved at the Master level as well.

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Phuobar wrote:

I do not agree that DPS gain should be linear. It should be capped, but not linear.

Rationale, xp gain is not linear. It takes only 1,000 pistol xp to go from marksman 0/0/0/0 to 0/1/0/0 yet it take 450x time more to go from pistoleer 0/3/0/0 to 0/4/0/0. If DPS gain is linear, that mean I, as an expert pistoleer, after spending 450x more time than some noob can only improve my skill by the same amount as that noob.

It also mean there's zero reason why someone would want to climb up the skill tree when the return is to diminishing small.

Really simple example, if your weapon DPS is, say, 100, would you spend 8 weeks just to gain 10 DPS?

Furthermore, creature difficulty are not linear. Those 150 lvl kimo will eat you master pistoleer alive if all you can do is 50% more damage than some noob. Heck, it'll eat all 50 of you master pistoleers.

Since xp gain are exponential, damage gain should be proportional to that. Just cap that so there's no runaway damage.

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Er, the basis of pretty much every game, especially multiplayer, is based on diminishing returns (at least if you want any sort of balance, anyway). Accuracy mods, melee damage mods, defense mods, toughness mods all work by linear DPS in skill. Linear-in-DPS is much, much, much more easier to balance when you have mods coming from many different places (gear, different classes, power-ups on weapons, etc).

Furthermore, the mods STACK. Speed increases your DPS by 10%, damage increases your DPS by 10%, accuracy improves your DPS by 10%, your defense decreases DPS taken by 10%, etc. and sooner or later you have a pretty significant advantage.

And yes, people WILL spend an inordinate amount of time for a relative small advantage. That's what powergamers do, virtually by definition.

By the way Oaktree, the 75% PvP reduction means you hit for 75% less damage, not 25% less damage.

Get back to work Samra. I know you are charging some poor soul $400/hour to post here

I'm not going to deny that there is a problem with the the current speed issues. There are flaws, but even still the flip side really isnt all that appealing either.

Stop comparing apples to oranges. If you are want to compare the FWG to something, compare it to the appropriate marksman rifle. The difference in the DX2 to T21 is only 5% which is pretty negliable and tough to define without getting some base stats for weapons (is the T21 any good, is the DX2 any good. What resources were used.) Just too tough to compare without real numbers.

That difference in the Melee defense modifier is HUGE. There is a huge difference in what you are able to accomplish in the time that a mob hits me for 3 hits for incap and hits you for 8. We may have to agree to disagree, but I believe that the pistoleers are the base class, carbineers should do 1.5x damage, and rifleman should do 2.5. Except for carbineer which we both agree is totally jacked up right now, my numbers support that.

Keep, at work. I got to start to get busy too. I'll shoot you a tell tonight.

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Scylla

NO MORE NUMBERS PLEASE. ROFL

Melee are the "base" professions as far as melee damage goes as they take 1.0x damage from melee attacks.All ranged professionshave melee damage penalties. Pistoleers take 1.2x damage from melee attacks, carbineers, 1.5x, riflepeople 2.5x, and heavy weapons 3.0x

In all of this discussion about weapon speeds and pistol vs. rifle advantages / disadvantages, it seems that people are forgetting that the speed problem also affects melee classes as well. It is a wider problem than just pistol vs. rifle.