Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer Issues Report #1, 7/25/03
Jaegen88 I don't know where your numbers are coming from, but here are my counts taken from the skills screen in game:
Master BH (bonuses are granted in 6 boxes of marksman plus 5 boxes in BH):
Pistol Accuracy: 120
Pistol Speed: 80
Master Pistoleer (bonuses are granted in 5 boxes in marksman and 10 boxes in Pistoleer):
Pistol Accuracy: 95
Pistol Speed: 74
My question is simply why this decision was made in favor of the BH. The accuracy while standing/moving should not be factored in because it isn't general accuracy. If anyone should have special case accuracy it would be the tagalong class, not the base pistoleer profession.
Ok, I have started down the Pistoleer profession since I had to take pistol to be a Smuggler. I only have Marksmanship 1 and Stances 1. The things I've see are as follows:
1. Yes, I've seen that a BH can become better with a pistol and is crappy. If I'm suppose to be a Pistoleer, I am suppose to be expected to be the best with a pistol, not second best to a BH. A BH should be using rifles from long range. It is part of the "you don't see me but I see you" aspect that a BH should have. A pistol entails that he has to be close to the target. They get these really great special moves with a pistol that even outperform what a Pistoleer can do. I mean, come on, they can add flame damage to a pistol attack?????? Where are all the special moves that a Pistoleer can do??? We get all these special moves that in my opinion aren't worth it, like the Point Blank moves. I currently only use Body Shot, Health Shot and Overcharge(but not that often). A Pistoleer should get some really interesting special moves and they should get much better with a pistol. I did themath for BH and Pistoleer. A BH get +120 Pistol Accuracy and +80 to Pistol Speed and the Pistoleer gets +95 to Accuracy and +74 to Speed. If you give the Pistoleer the Master Marksman points, then you get +105 to Accuracy and +79 to Speed. To me, this needs to be addressed most above all else.
2. The pistols to me are a main concern. There should be more weapons under the Pistoleer tree, just like more carbines under the carbineer tree and more rifles under the rifleman tree. These weapons should also be much better than what can be found under the Marksman tree. If a Scout Blaster can get a speed of 1.7 and do upto 135 or so max points of damage, then, there should be something under the pistoleer tree that can give you the same speed with a lot more damage. I mean, come on, the movies depicted people being killed with one shot whether it was a pistol, carbine or rifle. Why does a pistol have to be limited to just low damage. I have an FWG5 that as a speed of 2.0 and does a max of 152 points of damage. That is a great gun, but, why can't pistols do over 200 points of damage as the max? It will give us as Pistoleers a greater ability to compete with riflemen and carbineers on the battlefield, whether PvP or PvE. Especially since melee people can do well over 1000 points of damage in one hit and we sit back and peck away at the target with 200 to 300 points of damge a hit with Body Shot 2(don't have Body Shot 3 yet). In my opinion, ranged weapons should do much more damge than a melee person should, but, that is my opinion.
3. I really like the idea of wielding two pistols, and it should be more than just cosmetic. Sure, take some penalties at lower level, but, if you are a Master Pistoleer, you should be able to use two pistols very well, but, not as well as one pistol. Taking the max stats for Master Pistoleer for accuracy and speed, this is what duel wielding should give you: Pistol Accuracy +50(Master Pistoleer +95), Pistol Speed +95(Master Pistoleer +74). I feel that if you do have two pistols you should be faster. You should be able to put more shots out, but, not as accurately as one pistol.
Rhyus
Thanks for taking the time to put this together, Jagen88.
Keep up the good work!
Jagen88,
You will be disappointed with melee defense 2, it has no knockdown component. It does a fair ammount of damage, but since there is no knockdown component it doesn't even have a place on my hot key bar.
Kallek Truestryker
Imperial Gunslinger - Bloodfin
Thanks for the good work Jaegen. Thanks to the rest of you who are researching and number crunching to help analyze our profession.
Skeena, have you ever been to Rubi-Ka?
Jaegen88, it is my opinion that a Master Pistoleer should have more accuracy and speed (the 2 most important player stat components of DPS) in any posture thanthe master of anyother profession whether elite or hybrid. When I say Master Pistoleer I am referring to Master Pistoleer without any other skills boxes required.So a Master Pistoleer/Master Architect/Medic should have more than a plain Master BH. That is why I count Master Marksman for BH but not for Pistoleer.
Pistol Accuracy is the only skill modifier that affects you in any posture. I kneel a lot, and I assume that Pistol Accuracy while Standing doesn't help me then. Nor would Pistol accuracy while moving. Isn't it fair to wonder why BH's are more accurate while kneeling than a Pistoleer?
Now to be the most accurate Pistol user you would have to also take master marksman and the BH pistol line, I have no problem with that. Basically my accuracy/speed issue goes away ifa Master BH only got 90/70 accuracy/speed respectively, leaving us a tiny edge.
I'll save my reasons for wanting more accuracy for another post, but it's basically because accuracy = DPS, and more DPS never hurts. And the DPS edge ought to fall in favor of Pistoleers don't you think?
Jaegen88 wrote:
PIstoleer Accuracy while moving = 135
PIstoleer Accuracy while standing = 130
Pistoleer Accuracy aiming+ standing = 146.
Where are these numbers coming from? In a previous post, these high numbers never surfaced. The first numbers you posted were well under 100. Now, you have these numbers that are well over 100. Are you doing your math correctly?
When I fire, especially in a group, I am either kneeling or prone. The only time I stand is when the mob is attacking me. In either of those two positions, I can get off several free shots on the creature before it starts to charge. I will take that any day over having better accuracy and speed. So, those other positions will never help me.
Rhyus
It's unfair to compare pistoleer with so many pts left, to a bh that has almost used them all up.
Jaegen88 wrote:
I'm currently doing 575-1042 with stopping shot.
And I have yet to try fan shot, and to actually power up my pistol which is only max damage of 150 at the moment. Body shot 3 is doing about 280-550, again, with a 150 max dmg pistol I use to XP with. Heck, pistol melee defense is doing 330-670...and that's defense ONE. I will melee defense 2 in the morning, which does even more damage? I suspect it will hit in the 1000+ range. A 30% power up will drasitcally improve that, as would a slice. Does that sound more like what you expected? I'm sure some of these guys have harder hitting pistols and the final specials..they could probably give you even better examples.
Yes, it sounds better, but, as my other PA members are getting higher up in their professions, they are also getting to hit harder as well. I've been hearing TKA doing over 2000 points of damage on a single hit. The best rifle I've heard was around 1900. How is a Pistoleer going to compete with at TKA when they can do almost twice as much damage to a single target than youas a ranged wielding person suppose to do? I can understand a rifle doing more and even a carbine, but, a TKA should probably be doing as much damage as a Pistoleer should be doing. And we cannot factor in any powerup, as they are random and I am currently not using them as I just don't have a lot of storage capacity in my inventory to carry them and all my slicing tools. 
I am talking about just a straight use of special moves, like Body Shot, and yes, my guy I had been using was an FWG5 that had a 152 max damage and a speed of 2.0(it was sliced in speed). I now have a DX2 pistol, and it seems to give me a better range of damage than the FWG5 did, but, the DX2 damage is only 115 with a speed of 2.7. I am currently doing with Body Shot 2 on the DX2 from 230 to 350. The old FWG5 I was doing from about 110 to 400. I am slowly going up the pistoleer tree, and I do mean slowly. I'm not going out there an grinding every night, like some people probably are. I have other things that I have to take care of as well, like being a Smuggler and dealing with harvesters. But, from my own experiences, and what I'm hearing from my other PA members, I feel this is a real issue with TKAs doing twice as much damage as us.
Rhyus
Smuggler,
Why would you think to add master marksman in a discussion about pistoleer and bounty hunter? You really have me scratching my head there. The only difference between the two is one is REQUIRED, and one is OPTIONAL.Your numbers are the same as mine:
120/80 (master bounty hunter)
95/74(pistoleer without master marksman)
Adding the appropriate master marksman--->
105/79 base (pistoleer+ master marksman)
PIstoleer Accuracy while moving = 135
PIstoleer Accuracy while standing = 130
Pistoleer Accuracy aiming+ standing = 146.
Bounty Hunter Accuracy: 120 <---loser in most common situations
So you are asking me, to include in the next report, why pistoleer has better accuracy standing, running, and aiming,compared toa bounty hunter (who has fewer points left over..but you dislike that line of reasoning)., and why bounty hunter has +1 pistol speed over pistoleer? Do you really think that's an issue with the profession?-1 pistol speed and better accuracy in most situations?
Let me ask you another question...do you know what the "to-hit" bonuses are on the bounty hunter specials? Are they identical to pistoleer "to-hit bonuses"? Even though pistoleers seem to, according to both your numbers and my numbers, have greater accuracy in most situations...they may still have even more through specials.
When's the last time you missed with your pistol? With well below 120 I really dont miss that often, and I still have to raise the accuracy line in pistoleer. Is accuracy where you want the devs to focus their efforts really, when we clearly have the advantage?
Rhyus,
Especially since melee people can do well over 1000 points of damage in one hit and we sit back and peck away at the target with 200 to 300 points of damge a hit with Body Shot 2(don't have Body Shot 3 yet). In my opinion, ranged weapons should do much more damge than a melee person should, but, that is my opinion.
I'm currently doing 575-1042 with stopping shot.
And I have yet to try fan shot, and to actually power up my pistol which is only max damage of 150 at the moment. Body shot 3 is doing about 280-550, again, with a 150 max dmg pistol I use to XP with. Heck, pistol melee defense is doing 330-670...and that's defense ONE. I will melee defense 2 in the morning, which does even more damage? I suspect it will hit in the 1000+ range. A 30% power up will drasitcally improve that, as would a slice. Does that sound more like what you expected? I'm sure some of these guys have harder hitting pistols and the final specials..they could probably give you even better examples.
Rhyus,
"""Adding the appropriate master marksman--->
105/79 base (pistoleer+ master marksman)""
Then add pistoleer modifiers.
Anyway, back to your point about TKA. Common term is "knee jerk reaction". #1 TKA doing damage as high as XYZ is irrelevant to pistoleer issues. You might seek out the TKA board and discuss there.
You should realize that it is difficult or impossible to figure out what's what, before folks max out and try everything out, in PvP and PvE, and compare. Even then things stay hidden and unresolved, but it's certainly better than all these knee jerk reactions. Are you being serious when you say:
Some random TKA guy..he might have even completed the power TKA line and be very close to his max damage....this same TKA guy who was using top end crafted knucklers..who hit a rifleman for what..2x damage...while beserked...and hit for 2K damage? And you compared that to body shot 2 doing 350? Let's think about that for a while.
#1 Melee attacks get bonus damage multipliers on ranged opponents. Highest for rifle, med. for carbine, lowest for hitting a pistol user (1.2 or something I think I read). Ever see a TKA at the tuskan camp? That's why they hit so hard. The use their berserk special, close to melee range, and hit a rifle user..for 2000 damage.
#2 As Nova pointed out, one is ranged and one is point blank..huge difference.
#3 if you think TKA melee damage is out of line, you might consult with the TKA board on having them post that TKA styles are hitting too hard. It's really not a pistoleer issue.