Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The Rifleman Correspondent Wants to Kite Us
This is a PVP fix...how about when you are running across Lok chasing a Droideka that is hitting you for all sorts of damage and taking off again, always staying at 48m or so. The pistol user would be completely screwed. No way. Don't bork PVE to make a PVP balance.
The point ispistols are not suposed to be a LONG range weapon... so when you shoot at the droidaka at 45you are notsuposed to be hitting but missing.... the problem is that you are... BH pistols are still pistols and they should be for short range only too but their not...
Im all for lowering riflemans ability to hit while moving, but increasing our ability to hit while standing still... So now that we cant kite... why cant we have an advantage at range?
I thought we were trying to make the classes different? isnt that why people want to slow rifles down at master? following that line why not make long range for rifleman and short range for pistoliers? It should be consistant...
I know you guys have problems just like we do but unfortunatly to solve one of our problem it requires rebalancing. The problem is that its not balanced givingpistols an advantage it wasnt suposed to have.Now you guys have to admit thatpistols have a larger optimum range than rifles because its commonly known... I will settle for a larger optimum range and leave your range alone but that doesnt really follow the class seperation idea...
Well ill check your replays later so we can continue this conversation =)
All my pistols are at -70 and -90 respectively at long range.
I'd be willing to take a range reduction down to 50m for pistols but nothing less. And if you were a Rifleman and you did get within 6m of me...you should be so much dead meat if things are to be balanced out. But 50m is fine with me, anything less and you'd draw aggro just trying to get within range. Stupid game mechanics are the problem here, 64m for a rifle is just too freaking short. Should have been closer to 80-85m.
Fayden Way
a modest difference in range between pistols wouldn't be too bad (say, 50m for a pistol).
Kiting, of course, sucks. One really good idea for melee types would be to slow, slightly, the runningany firearms user IF THEY'RE SHOOTING. Now, if a rifleman was kiting a pistoleer, this means the pistoleer would run faster until they get back into range (and start shooting), then the range would remain fixed unless one side peaced out. Then again, theoretically, riflemen aren't supposed to be able to hit anything if they're running...
Noules000 wrote:
The suggestion I made on the rifleman thread regarding accuracy was to split the BH pistol mod and the pistoleer mod so they don't stack. Call it 'scatter pistol accuracy/speed' and 'non-scatter pistol accuracy/speed'. Both would stack with the marksman generic 'pistol accuracy/speed', but not with each other. This eliminates the perfect synergy between pistoleer/BH, while potentially allowing cross-specials between the classes (which is really a much smaller issue as specials can only be used one at a time, unlike the mods which are always working).
and
Jaegen88 wrote:
I like a lot of Noule's suggestions, they take less time than mine to write
Anyway, I agree, too much BH comparison, too doomsday about the speed issue, not enough focus on rifle fixes (or do they need fixes..we assume they do), wonder why some can spam mind pool shots and not cost mind, while rifles cannot (self-limiting), are like you say, what the role of each combat profession is.
If there as ever a pistoleer chanage, hard cap would NOT be the way to go. Anything that has to do with accuracy should be addressed through accuracy.
Do you realise I said it at least 30 times already ? No answer, no comment, nothing...exactly like if nothing was said. For memory, here is one of my posts :
to clarify things a bit, the formula is :
RD = ( WS x MD ) x ( 1 - SMod/100)
where WS stands for Weapon Speed
MD for Move Speed (1 for normal attack)
SMod for Speed Modifier
RD for Real Delay
You can write the exact same thing like this :
WS x MD = RD / (1 - SMod/100)
The error in this formula is for ppl reaching 100 Speed Modifier (or above). If you reach 100 speed, there is a "division by 0" which makes no sense, it is impossible (have no time to explain this, just trust me : you can't divide by 0, basic math rule). This problem is never met in the game for the simple reason there is a "shortcut" in the algorythm stating that if speed is under 1, then the result is 1.
As a result, whatever the weapon you use, whatever the attack you use, if your speed is 100 or more, your delay will ALWAYS be 1. This can't be discussed.
The evident failure of the formula have many explainations :
1) cap of "1 sec dly min" is just plain stupid.
2) BH and other profs can stack their speed mods, which bring them above 100 (129 for BH / pistoleer)
3) even without reaching 100, above 75 you start to see how rare are the pistols not reaching 1 dly for even Stopping Shot
The new cap system is only the first step of what MUST be done :
- .5 dly for pistols
- 1 dly for carbines
- 3 dly for Rifles
This makes MANY sense, you can argue what you want, this is simply LOGICAL.
But IF BH / Pistoleer can still raise their speed mod to 129, they will reach this .5 dly ALL THE TIME, making them WAY more deadly than what they already are.
So in addition of new Delay Cap, they should limit speed mods to :
- 80 for pistol
- 65 for carbines
- 50 for Rifles
(Those numbers can be discussed, I made NO math, just an idea, not a final result).
Now it makes much more sense since if you want to reach the .5 cap with normal shoot, you still can (with a very fast weapon) but in no way you can use Stopping Shot with .5 dly.
I've said it at least 50 times, I really hope Philosopher or Jeagen or anyone else with perfect English language could try to understand what I mean and try to explain it to others. I think no one is caring when I am conviced it is THE solution to the problem
It is pure maths, hard delay cap is NOT going to fix anything, it will just bury a bit more Carbineers and nerf a lot Riflemen. We don't really benefit this change either (or almost not) but BH are just way better. I don't think this is what we intended.
With a cap to speed mods (we for sure can add accuracy too but I'm convinced Pistoleers are meant to miss this elephant on their feet) to maybe 80 for pistols, 70 for carbins and 60 for rifles with NO delay cap change (leave it like it is), the whole problem is suddenly much more balanced.
The problem is SOE never meant those mods to stack (or they are just plain ignorant they made a game) but with their will to make BH very efficient (they are very efficient only with their special moves) they were pleased to see him so powerfull (still guessing). The problem now is that Carbineers, Pistoleers and Riflemen are trying to figure out how to balance themselves whith the "bugged like hell" BH, which isn't possible.
I don't thing we can call it a nerf for BH, it will even give them back some of their so priceless skill points left, just surrender speed mods in carbine and pistol and you made 90% of Happy BH, you know, the casual one, the one who get BH just to get those spedd mods bug.
The whole game would be much balanced, leaving BH above anyone still but with some possible competition now, and many different combat combo will spawn, not always BH/something vs Comando/Something.
Preventing a profession to be able to take down 5 master elite combat profession in the raw is NOT nerfing, it is fixing.
Recently I went head to head with a pistoleer. I was running and shooting at around 50m. I shot twice after my intital shot (was standing still) and missed both times. All he did was turn on autofire and follow after me. After hitting about 6-7 times in a row, I was dead. This really isnt the doomsday prophecy Philosopher is predicting
Tilen
Scylla
Well I'm not spewing up anything. Limiting the distance of our specials was just one option that Aldeon mentioned. As a matter of fact it was option #3 on his list. Option #1 and #2 involve kiting us:
1.) Increase max ranges of thecaribineer and rifleman.
2.) Decrease max ranges of the caribineer and pistoleer
3.) Introduce a style range cap
4.) Decrease accuracy of pistoleers, andcaribineers.
Your argument seems to be that riflemen cannot hit anything while moving, which is of course false. I kite banthas all the time with my rifleman alt. The argument that your correspondent isn't asking to kite us is also false. Not only is kiting options #1 and #2 on his list, but it's clear from his post on your forum that he prefers those two options.
The sad thing is that your correspondent has little justification for focusing on this change. The speed "nerf" only hurts riflemen who had over +70 or +80 speed. His "solution" only helps you in PvP. Yet all the bigger problems riflemen face are ignored (2.5 melee, HAM costs, etc). Why is he itching to nerf another class so you can kite the rest of us in PvP? I think if he was doing his job, he'd focus on solving your real problems instead of proposing preposterous changes like this.
Man, this is funny. Before you let Philosopher here go spewing stuff to get everyone in an uproar, lets get the facts. Aldeon has no intention of limiting your range to just 32m or whatever.
Complete and utter untuth. I started the debate, I should know. Yes, specials are 100% of any profession's damage if they aren't an idiot, so it limites pistoleers to 32m range. A direct, and specific request for a pistoleer nerf, from your correspondent, based on, what I keep showing to be, poor reasoning. "Wah, cause eye shot is better" um, not a pistoleer issue. "Wah because I cannot run around at any range and be accurate", duh, read your ideal range and go prone, like snipers do. "wah, FWG5s take only 1 krayt tissue and are uber while T21s take 4 tissues, help rifleman, nerf pistoleers!!" Ah yes, FWG5, the massive AR0 weapon that does -50% in PvP. So they have a max damage of 300, that drops to 150...ooh, ahh, what a disparity. But the best is that our AR1 weapon, the DX2, also takes 4 tissues, JUST LIKE THE T21. See why we know what's what, and you don't?
The proposal was to limit using specials outside of that area since the accuracy bonus built into your specials give you a huge advantage.
Huge advantage? lol. You keep saying this, but you don't make sense. You can keep anyone at your ideal range (or stay out of their ideal range), if you freaking play smart. You'd rather not have to use tactics/finesse with a sniper rifle..lol, too bad.
There wouldnt be random rifleman just kiting around pistoleers, more than likely you'd still kill us. I'd be willing to bet, a master rifleman getting chased by a master pistoleer, the rifleman would either die or they would run the length of the planet without anyone winning.
lol, wild speculation.
Recently I went head to head with a pistoleer. I was running and shooting at around 50m. I shot twice after my intital shot (was standing still) and missed both times. All he did was turn on autofire and follow after me. After hitting about 6-7 times in a row, I was dead. This really isnt the doomsday prophecy Philosopher is predicting
Oh yeah? I recently went head to head with a master rifleman. At range, I miseed 4/5 shots (and I have BH pistol accuracy stacked on my master pistoleer accuracy), and he hit about 5/6 shots. He killed me and my doctor with flushing volley while we did 1 attack worth of damage. Pretty cool eh?
I have screen shots, do you think they matter? He either got lucky, or used ideal range to his advantage, or had ranged defense out the whazoo. OMG, you mean you can use tactics to gain an advantage? How novel.
Utter nonsense. If you really think 32m gives you an edge, but you say you wont kite us, then you're not being consistent. Otherwise, we will close that 32m in 2 seconds and you're RIGHT back where you started. See?
Question why are they introduceing a hard cap on Weapon speed
Answer because due to fact bonuses and slot items you are easyly able to get a weapon such as T21 to fire at 1 shot per second so the answer they come up with is hard cap weapons forceing rifleman to fire every 3 seconds.
Question Ideal range on pistol is 8m to 16 m yet they are extremely accurate up 64m when you combine all bonuses and you can apply accuracy items same as rifleman can use a speed increase tape. So why should they not introduce a hard cap on range to stop pistolers from hitting at LONG range.
Pistols ideal range is 8m to 16m which very short in current system they hit extremely accuractely right out to 64m if going introduce a hard cap on weapon speed cause a rifleman can shot as fast as pistol WHICH IMO WAS A PISTOLERS IDEA.
Then what is wrong with rifleman saying hang on your going nerf us to buggery to allow pistol user their rightfull speed advantage. So why dont you nerf them and give us our rightfull RANGE advantage.
Its a 2 way street you cant expect shot 3 times as fast someone useing a rifle and have exactly same range as them
HARD SPEED CAP = HARD RANGE CAP for balanceing purposes.
The problem doesnt lay within stacking abilities. Its with Pistol styles alone. Pistol styles have so much bonus to accuracy they out wiegh the negatives. So I once again invite Jaegen to do tests with me to prove me wrong. Until I am proved wrong I will not stop fighting for range mods to be adjusted so that we are masters of long range.
Prove me wrong, thats all it takes.
Thats what im proposing for Jaegen to do. One test with styles, one without. Im actually 100 percent sure you will be suprised.