Pistoleer Archive
Thread: So This is How it Has to be
Let the man speak for himself. On this thread: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=17889 The rifleman correspondent says this:
"Pistoleers are already getting a rifle nerf 3 second speed cap. Is it not fair at the same time you get your speed, we get our range?"
I'll just let this speak for itself.
I'm disappointed with his attitude as well. From what I've seen, that guy is more interested in making his profession 1337 d00ds than he is with fixing its problems or creating play balance. It's just too bad that someone mature like Noules wasn't their Correspondent, because Rifleman does have some problems that need to be fixed and I think the current strategy is just going to get people (not just Pistoleers, but many professions) riled up.
But I think that we should just let this simmer for a while. Yesterday I got mad because of things said to Jaegen and I think it's easy to overreact because this guy says some wild stuff. But let's just let this simmer for a while and see what they come up with. Noules made a good post to the other Riflemen on that thread -- hopefully some cooler heads will prevail on that forum.
"No bitterness -- this is not balancing, it is class warfare, and we have been to naive to regard it as such. While Jaegan and the Pistoleers militated for a Pistoleer class with endless advantages and no disadvantages whatsoever, we suggested a Rifleman class with an equal share of both -- the compromise is, apparently, one profession with all the disadvantages and another with all the advantages. We Riflemen didn't have the chutzpah to seek self-advancement through the mutilation of another profession, and that is a pity."
No bitterness, but lets bury these guys. They really want to nerf us. Our only response should be to utterly destroy their profession.
Any sane riflemen out there want to explain?
One sane rifleman reporting in. This is a cut and paste of a post I made in the rifle boards, and this is how I ( I won't attempt to speak on behalf of all riflemen). I've been looking for a spot to post this, and this looks perfect.
The reason we are calling a so called "pistol nerf" is a reason of logistics: Rifles will NEVER get a 3X damage increase to offset a 3x Slow down.
Why? One-shots. The dev's have beaten many a dead horse, saying they don't want one-shots. Some rifleman, Given a lucky roll on a HIGHLY modified Laser rifle/ Pre-nerf T-21 (what's a T-21?? never heard of em on Bria)may one shot people as is... ANY damage increase, be it 1.5x -3.0x, will result in one-shots on a regular basis. The devs said they don't want Riflemen specifically (regarding the T-21), or any class, getting those (yet it's ok for commandos to get one-shot Cones??). Plus, as I've said, the dam increase will obviously only be at the top end, giving us 25-550 Lasers. w00t w00t.
The only way to balance out the DPS of pistols and rifles, WHEN the speed cap is put in, will be to lower pistol Dam/Multipliers/Range. They can't logically lower the damage of BASE pistols, as there are MILLIONS of them out in the game, and the second the lower pistols hit Test Center, the mass hoarding will begin. The only way to fix the DPS, given the devs reluctance to up rifle damage for fear of the one-shot, is to "nerf" pistols. The nerf would have to come in the form of changes to the Multipliers on pistol styles, be it to accuracy or damage.
No Rifleman, on this or any other board, would wish a nerf on any class. If so, they are an embarassment to this class and to the community, anda n00b l33t dude assuredly.
We want BALANCE. No self-respecting rifleman wants to be Uber, we just want to be more competitive. 50/50 would be great, even 40/60 would do in PvP solo. We understand we are support chars, and this is our Destiny.
I personally would love to these classes unite and fight the common opponent: not BH's, the Devs. Could you imagine the power of Pistols, Rifles, and I'm sure Carbines would be down with it, combining to provide a unfied front? Maybe our respective correspondants should sit down and talk... This might have potential.
2 cents from a novice rifleman
Khyras, On Bria.
Doctor/ Rifleman
"Wipe them out. ALL of them" -Devs to Riflemen
Wow, can you feel the love coming from rifleman board? and I thought the BH were pissed at us. Sorry our very broken class is slightly less broken than yours. I think its very reasonable for a corespondent to post on another board, he is kind of the voice of authority when it comes to the class in question. Just my thoughts though.
Tell me this, why do you deserve a 3x damage bump when you already do 5x our damage with your rifle? Or 2.5x damage on aconservative estimate,as it currently stands?
And the difference would be 6x not 3x as the devs currently propose it. You go to 3 sec we go to .5 sec. But that's a little ridiculous in my opinion. It would only work if you did 6x our damage. So if you can do 6 x our damage in one shot then I support the change. We do ridiculously low damage as it is (I have seen 1000 damage on fanshot, 1600 on stopping shot.) What's been your highest damage with your best weapon?
If a rifleman hits for 6000 damage every six seconds now (lets call that 4 misses and two hits) and a pistoleer hits for 4000 damage (call that 4 hits and two misses) then the classes are still not balanced. But you think you should get even more damage and reduce ours further?
My opinion, and the opinion of many on this board, is that you should get a damage bump if there is a 3 sec rifleman hard cap. But that's not what is being said on your board. On your board it is "the pistoleers are causing this." Wake up and smell the coffee!
Things aren't balanced as it is. the change they propose won't bring balance. The changes the riflemen propose won't bring balance.
We should all work together, yes, and throw out our current assumptions about how we are balanced, because we aren't, and find a better solution.
In a 12 second combat rifleman damge should = carbineer damage should = pistoleer damage. The ways we get there will be different. The special moves we get will be different. the ranges we work at will be different. But the end result should be that we all do the same damage over time and earn the same xp over time.
Issik,
Thanks for your post. It's good to have you visit. By the way I do hope they make 25-550 Lasers more available ... I have a 50-550 Laser on Kauri and that's a badass weapon. 
Personally I have no problem with riflemen one-shotting someone with a T21 and I would support an un-nerfing of the T21. If the Devs won't do that, then they can just raise the min damage on the weapons so they can deal out more consistentdamage. And there are other good changes (2.5 melee, HAM costs, getting rid of heavy weapons as melee, etc) that are needed although some of the ideas (100+ range ?!?) are kind of strange, to put it mildly.
I really like rifle ... it is not as noob-friendly but it rewards tactics. It is fun to sneak up on people, use /mindshot2, and then slither away and watch them die.
That said, none of us on the Pistoleer forum have any enemies, including the Bounty Hunters. Our goal is to get our profession fixed. I think some of us, including myself, got angry yesterday because of the way our Correspondent was treated and some other things that wereposted... but that's not usually our style.
Hopefully we can calm down on our end, and you can talk some sense into the folks calling for nerfs and for crazy changes on your end. I certainly think there should be no animosity between professions, especially the two of ours.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Issik,
Thanks for your post. It's good to have you visit. By the way I do hope they make 25-550 Lasers more available ... I have a 50-550 Laser on Kauri and that's a badass weapon.
Personally I have no problem with riflemen one-shotting someone with a T21 and I would support an un-nerfing of the T21. If the Devs won't do that, then they can just raise the min damage on the weapons so they can deal out more consistentdamage. And there are other good changes (2.5 melee, HAM costs, getting rid of heavy weapons as melee, etc) that are needed although some of the ideas (100+ range ?!?) are kind of strange, to put it mildly.
I really like rifle ... it is not as noob-friendly but it rewards tactics. It is fun to sneak up on people, use /mindshot2, and then slither away and watch them die.
That said, none of us on the Pistoleer forum have any enemies, including the Bounty Hunters. Our goal is to get our profession fixed. I think some of us, including myself, got angry yesterday because of the way our Correspondent was treated and some other things that wereposted... but that's not usually our style.
Hopefully we can calm down on our end, and you can talk some sense into the folks calling for nerfs and for crazy changes on your end. I certainly think there should be no animosity between professions, especially the two of ours.
Me and you can the romeo and juliet than unite the warring clans of pistol and rifle : I die enough, and you can be sad about it (minus the love affair, unless you buy me dinner first. winkwink)
One thing you may be missing though: we DON'T want laser to do 50-550. 150-400, or even 200-325 would be much more practical. Totally dead-on about the 100m though, 70, sure, anything more is far too broken and the other Rifle ideas you mentioned.
Dilune: 5x with a rifle? The BEST pre-nerf T-21 had about 750 (I think less though) max damage. I've seen krayt FWG-5s run 250+. That's 3x on a gun that doesn't exist anymore. Our best gun now is the 50-550 laser, where you hit yourself more than the target on some occasions. So, that makes 2x (estimation, the best laser I've ever seen pre-slice hits for 450. 450+550 = 500 average.) Not too mention the miss factor, and the most part of the speed (+20) comes at master.
This post was not meant as "a we have it so bad" it is just stating a rifleman's POV as to why the pistol specials need changing IF the speed cap goes in. Read it again please, and look for the logic in the "no one-shot" paragraph.
Thanks for the support, I want balance. Just like you.
Khyras, On Bria.
Doctor/ Rifleman
"Wipe them out. ALL of them" -Devs to Riflemen
Arg, That should read " And your take on the other rifle ideas is bang on too." Last line, 2nd paragraph
my kingdom for an edit button.
Khyras, On Bria.
Doctor/ Rifleman
"Wipe them out. ALL of them" -Devs to Riflemen
Issik - the damage comparisons include things like AP ratings and special manuevers. Just for example I have a character with a 550 max damage laser rifle - add a 30% slice, +33% power up and you are looking at 951pts max shots..now add in that it is AP2 vs the AP0 FWG5 (the pistol able to get the best damage currently) and you have a laser rifle hitting for 1486pts....compared to around 500 for the best pistol/slice/power up combo I have seen reported yet. Pre-nerf T21s come off even better - but at least they are no longer available.
So basically as it stands *now* at master level a rifleman has easily 3x the dps of a pistoleer already.
It's 7am, and I haven't slept yet, so I'm in no shape to do this math, but a suggestion nonetheless:
Would increasing the Minimum damage on rifles help the DPS situation for them? It would increase the average damage per hit, which increases DPS calculations, and also wouldn't change the one-shotting frequency.
Can a well-rested math guy crank on this to determine if it can help balance?