Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer vs BH and some thoughts on the new skills/changes proposed
I just reached Master level in pistoleer about 4 days ago, haven't had time to check out all the new skills thoroughly just yet, but I have debts to repay (don't get to master pistoleer on your own).
On this whole BH problem everyone seems to have (every prof that is), BH are supposed to track people down and kill them. They are basically the people you fear for the sheer one on one combat ability they possess. I understand that they get the best skills (damage and status affect wise). But to me, somebody who specializes in a weapon (pistoleer) ought to be more technically sound with it than somebody who uses it when it's convenient (BH are good with all weapons, can swiitch to whatever is most useful at the time). I don't think pistoleers should just be able to take out a BH at will, but I do think they ought to be faster and better at aiming a pistol than a BH. There is no way a BH should be better at handling a pistol than I am at master pistoleer. Maybe they are willing to fight a little more dirty or know a better spot to hit sopmebody, but to think they'd be faster or more accurate with a pistoljust seems a bit ridiculous to me. If that's the case, why even call pistoleer a specialization?
As far as disarming shot goes, do you want your weapon condition killed by a player in combat? I didn't think so. Nobody else does either. Just have it somehow stop the opponent from being able to shoot at you for a time if successful. Or even attack (melee). Make the first one a short time, with the master level disarming 2 quite a bit more effecive. Something to reward a master pistoleer for their hard work. But also make it a bit of a gamble for both, as the chance of hitting an opponent's weapon would be rather small, so make it aquite a bit smaller chance to hit than say..torso shot. Just some sort of trade-off for the ability to keep your opponent from attacking you for a time.
The dual wield idea, while appealing for it's style, is definitely a nerf waiting to happen. You don't think hordes of people will complain that pistoleers are too powerful with a couple of good FWG5s? If this is implemented, make it one of the higher level combat XP skills, and also make it impossible to perform certain specials. Pistol whip would have to go, as well as a few of the more powerful ones, maybe keep one good attack for it, or give it a special of it's own, and make it more effective on the multiple target shots. but make sure to have trade-offs that make using a single pistol a viable option, as well as not making it too powerful.
The holsters and flourishes sound cool, and I like added style, but I have to question whether or not it would be good to do this before the other bugs with the game are fixed. Style should come after the bread and butter (skills working right) is finished.
Body shot 3, yes, definitely needs a fix...but we all know that. Maybe even put another worthwhile skill on that whole thread. I am trying to recall the last time I even thought about using a skill from that particular area of pistoleer, and I really can't come up with one. Close range area shot is nice for small creature lairs, like some spineflaps or the like, but it's not worth using on anything that you will be killing by the time you get either of them. The close-range single shot doesn't make any sense to use once you get stopping or fan shot, or even double tap, and I always preferred the targeted damage of body shot 2. This thread needs some work.
As far as new pistols being introduced...YES! I really hate most of the pistols in the game due to either high costs or inconsistent damage. The high end damage on a FWG5 is nice, but low end is horrible. Put that with a 35+ base action cost and you have an unhappy pistoleer when you get the low end damage too often on a high-end mob (or player). A DX2 is pretty much worthless because it basically takes the use of special away entirely. Action and health costs that high are really evil when you have to rely on yourself for healing, or someone who isn't a CM. I understand the idea that the acid damge and armor piercing need balancing, but it makes the gun seem a little useless unless whatever you are fighting is weak against acid. The tangle pistol needs some serious work, because I am still better off using something else against something weak against stun. It is a CDEF with stun damage. DL44 has such a low min damage that it is really not worth using to me. Only pistol I care for in the game is the scout, fast, reliable damage, and action costs that don't take you out of a fight if you need specials. I understand the need for balancing, but if a gun is high action cost, there should be some sort of trade-off there with consistency of damage.
Lastly, a small complaint about the pistol whip nerf. I understand that knockdowns were powerful and people didn't like that once you got knocked down...yeah, I get it. BUT, there is a small problem with a 30 second delay. Most mobs that give good XP don't stay down longer than 2 seconds in my experience. Occasionally, they will lay there a while, but most of the time they pop back up about as fast as I can get off a few more shots. If you're going to have an immunity for that long after the knockdown, at least make the knockdown worth doing by having it disorient the mob/player long enough to make it worth the cost I used to do it. I'm not asking for the ability to knock things down at will again, just a little bit of downtime for whatever I knock down so i can use that time to my advantage.
I think all bonuses (speed, skills, etc...) should only work if at the same tier lvl of an elite you don't have better - for example, BH have +10 speed (no comment, really) pistol at tier 1 and pistoleer +6. Having them both shoudl only grant +10 speed, not 16. Idem for skills, not to mention you shouldn't be able to do some specials with a scatter for example (I think BH can but not sure).
With 3 other classes able to get our skill tree by nature (only something they have to activate), our skill tree CAN'T be excellent or most of pistol wearing classes would be. You shouldn't be able to BH and Pistoleer at the same time, you shouldn't be able to be Smuggler and Pistoleer at the same time, etc...it was a choice made once, not something you can activate at will imho.
Allowing players to be both of them is accepting Pistoleer must be a lesser profession.
As far as disarming shot goes, do you want your weapon condition killed by a player in combat? I didn't think so.
I don't want my armor condition killed by a player in combat. It's going to happen whether I like it or not.
While i do see what your saying, Pistoleer is indeed an Elite Class. However the only problem is that you keep comparing pistoleer ( an elite class ) to Hybrid classes. The difference is that an elite class is something that uses one tree to master and thats it. As to where a hybrid such as BH/Smuggler/Commando are having to mass together skills from many diff proffesions, or master other skill tree's. Imo i think carbineer/riflemen/pistoleer in a way were meant to do two things. One would be to augment a hybrid fighting class into an even deadlier opponent ( best chars are the dabblers ). And two would be to give ppl who wished to be crafters/medic types a tree that they could take that would not eat up all of their skill points to achieve. And give them very nice fighting skills with a weapon type to help them in pve and to better survive in pvp. I have quite a few skills in the pistoleer tree so far and am still using more out of it. I never would expect that a class such as pistoleer to stack up to a hybrid such as commando/bh though. Heck i am not aying that pistoleer is perfect, it needs some work. I am just saying don't expect it to stack up to hybrids pvp wise unless you augment yourself with some med skills.
Dyriel wrote:
One of the reason Pistoleers are that broken is the fact they can share their skills with 3 other profs. A BH may use our skills to be better, like Commando and Smuggler. As it stands, Pistoleer IS NOT an elite class, it is just some bonusus to another class.
There is a huge difference : armor is MEANT to protect you and then, to take some dmg, not weapon isn't, period.
So remove the gun from your hand and let me blow your hand right off. Or you can let the gun take the shot.
One very hypocrit statement BH / Commando and Smugglers (well, mainly BH) made is the "we spent way more skill points then you to become master". Yeah, it is true but it is not complete, those guys are masters in 3 different professions which grant them at least 2 other lines of VERY usefull skills almost any Pistoleer / Carbineer / Rifleman must gather too to be efficient (but it is not required, this is the only difference). There are so many advantages to be Master Scout I can't even numerate them...
but still the old same unanswered question : why should a BH (and on a lesser note, smuggler) be better than a Pistoleer with a Pistol ?
If you find any In-Game or RL explanation, I would admit Pistoleer should be what it is now...but I don't think it is even possible.
No seriously, go unarmed. What's there to shoot at if you aren't using a weapon?
Though I did note that in PvE, disarm seems to attack all 3 pools at once. It seems to average the damage across 3 pools which is very odd to me.
I'm willing to give BH's more pistol speed (like quick-drawing jango fett). However, I think pistoleers should have more accuracy. This doesn't mean that speed modifiers aren't all jacked when they get close to and beyond+100.
I think BH's should be able to kill all kinds of stuff in 1 on 1 combat. However, I think they should be able to do it with special cool bounty hunter stuff, not just plain blasting them with a pistol. Things like traps that work against players, or ambushes, or disquiges, or... you now.. COOL stuff.
It's true that BH's have to waste a ton of skill points to get there. However it's also true that once they get there, there's only four boxes they need to spend on any one weapon to get really frightening at it. If someone wants to master pistol/carbine, there's SIXTEEN boxes they're going to spend on it.
But this entire discussion is moot, since all the BH's are going to be using LLC's now, and the commandos will be complaining about them. 