Pistoleer Archive

Hello all.

This is NOT a rant or whine post, it is a result of many testings I made about accuracy, speed and problems they encounter while raising the skills.

Note that I didn't test the T21 Rifle for the moment because I don't think it will change anything to the results...T21 can only enhance Riflemen power actually, which they don't need if we ONLY focus on Speed / Accuracy notes.

To test this, I surrended Medic (was 3 0 0 0, he he) and CH (...was Master). I am now Master Pistoleer / BH 0 0 2 0 - 2 points left (stupid game).

First, the bug that makes the mob warp on you is killer for Riflemen, nothing comparable with Pistoleers, I ask for pardon for what I said before : this bug is much more annoying for Riflemen than for Pistoleers...really, this should be fixed asap (even before speed cap).

Before going to BH, I was able to call Graul Maulers for the whole testing. They are very resistant pets and don't make too much dmg to leave me enought time to have many numbers to parse. ALL the mobs where Pubams from 25k missions on Endor, near Smuggler Outpost. There are many different ones and resists/AR are very different too. I made Marksman 0 4 0 4 to Master in 4 hours (yeah, very long to become a BH), almost constant killing. Weapons were bought before I start so I didn't lose any time with that. None was sliced.


Accuracy :

Frankly, I don't understand why Riflemen are crying here. After killing more than 200 pubams, let me tell you that when you know where to place and when to fire at, you are WAY more accuracte than a pistoleer. There is no comparison, really. I parsed my logs with a simple template : for a said mob (all of them spawned at least 6 times, some spawned MUCH more) I placed at best range, then worst one and compare hit vs miss. Actually, this wasn't really MISS vs hit but NON MISS vs MISS. Let me explain : if the mob counterattacks, dodges or so, we can say I didn't hit him BUT we can't say I missed hit. He made an action to avoid the hit BUT I was accurate. Anyway, dodges and other defenses moves are almost the same for any given weapon, so I won't lose time trying to debate about this. I used normal attack and special moves, can separate them but it is almost the same results.

Results are :

Novice Marksman = BR 76% - WR 43%
Rifle 1 = BR 79% - WR 49%
Rifle 2 = BR 84% - WR 58%
Rifle 3 = BR 90% - WR 65%
Rifle 4 = BR 95% - WR 65%
Master Marksman = BR 95% - WR 65%

As you can see, at Worst Range (WR, BR stands for Best Range) I can't go over 65% accuracy which is surely what Riflemen are stating. The problem is that they are 95% accurate at Best Range, which is much better than master pistoleer. FYI, the same mobs with different pistols :

DX2 : BR 79% - WR 65%
FWG5 : BR 90% - WR 64%
SR Combat : BR 92% - WR 65%

Scatter : BR - 94% - WR 65%

(Scatter was tested long time after but this doesn't change anything I think)
(Strange nothing is going over 65% at worst range, isn't it ?)

Keep in mind I am MASTER Pistoleer, not Pistol 4 from marksman. I am supposed to be MUCH BETTER than a Master Marksman with a Pistol...but I am not even as accurate.

Accuracy contest : Rifleman winner (and whiner :b)


Speed :

For evident reasons, as a Master Pistoleer vs Master Marksman (for rifle) I didn't compare my own skills for those weapons. So I called a Master Rifleman friend that is also Master CH. With his T21, he fires once per second with any Rifle if normal attack or special moves, so do I. Here, our respective DPS is WAAAAAYYYYYYYY better with Rifle than with Pistol, there is NO possible contest. His DPS was 6 times mine if fight doesn't last too long, it was much worst if fight was too long (because they ruin their Mind Pool BUT it recovers very fast, not my action or Health ones...we didn't heal at all which could have balanced results btw).

The only problem here is that Riflemen are firing so fast they don't have time to recover their Mind Pool...if you ask me, it is a VERY small drawback for the terrible DPS they have. The Speed being bugged, I don't think Riflemen were supposed to be that fast SO their Mind Pool is going down much too fast...but they are able to re-fire in less than 10 seconds, we can't. Of course they can shoot only 5 times before being OOM (Out Of Mind) but really, this isn't a big problem (but could be in pvp, we'll see later why).

Speed Contest : Master Rifleman winner, overwise Pistoleer winner.



PvP and PvE :

Those tests were all in PvE so we have time to place ourselves, to wait for the pet to agro and tank the target and avoid any other danger. In PvP things are A LOT different because opponents won't wait for you place at perfect range. Did you ever try to duel a TKA ? Those guys are following you until you engage the fight, so they KD you instantly and kill you while on the floor...of course, if the fight begins at 32 m, they are dead...all is matter of position. The problem with Rifleman is that their perfect range is often 60m, while opponent one is surely less. We tested combat with my friend but without firing (only chasing) to know who can be the more often at his perfect range. I won easily...VERY easily I should say. The average distance was 25m, very good range for me, not that bad for him (BUT he have to use Spraystick - very good weapon btw, min dmg too low to be perfect) and perfect for a Carbineer (I killed him with a carbine later...he is Master Rifleman, I am Master Marksman for Carbine, figure - he one shoted me many times too).

The real deal here is the movement...Riflemen are very annoyed by movement, they are a static class, a sniping class. They should stay at long range and assist melees with powerful attacks...but while dueling, THEY are the melee, so...
Riflemen lose many accuracy if they move, this is a terrible drawback everywhere, in PvE AND PvP (more evident in PvP). We also are convinced that the simple fact of mouse looking too much is considered as a MOVE by the game...yes, this is easy to check : target a mob not moving, place at best range and use mouse look (looking behind, coming back, etc..) you'll see accuracy meter lowering...you didn't move at all BUT you suffer movement accuracy penalty. You can also try this with Forage, it says you can't forage while running but you only looked elsewhere, you didn't moved for 3 minutes or so. This bug is very dangerous for them, very.

Another thing that aggraves their situation is the 2.5 dmg modifier if meleeing...trust me, where a Pubam only hit me once for 500 with my Pistoleer skills, the exact same pubam hit me for 1800...yes, 1800. How I am supposed to survive this ? (hit me in mind to be just funny, holy pubam). Man could say this modifier is here here to show they have to avoid melee. Yes, they have to...and trust me, they try. But with game mechanism, lag and mob warping, they just CAN'T avoid melee, it is near impossible to do. Not to mention they often die in a single hit.

When you consider things, you have also to consider mobs resists. Sure Riflemen have big hits and terrible accuracy (almost) BUT they only have 3 (cold - energy - stun) different dmg type where Pistoleers have 5 (stun, heat, acid, energy and kinetic). They reach AP3 but only with T21 that is surely bugged atm. They also have AP2 energy and Stun (the STUN one is really a good PvP gun, a shame they didn't even tried it, my friend tried it following my advice and for test purpose, he was much more efficient while I put my Composite Armor). Pistoleers are limited to AP1 pistols (acid and energy). Our weakness is the low dmg that we can compensate with perfect dmg type. Their weakness is small choice of dmg type BUT better AP. Quite balanced ? Not exactly, just because the only one who should have enought time to analyse opponent and thus chose the right tool to use have low choice and this ability to analyse and chose is negated in pvp because opponent won't wait for him to be rdy. Actually, the best overall weapon they have is the SG82 with nice DPS, Energy AP2 and nice accuracy. They take advantage of game design (that is bugged for a fair part) with this ability to use a "all-around" Rifle. Pistoleers can't.


My new BH skills are just....well, I am at a point where I start to consider not grabbing Master CH back (I am CH 1 1 0 0 atm, just able to call GSP and Kliknik Defenders, 2 very good pets). Of course Graul Maulers are much better but WHO CARES ? My DPS is 3 times what it was before with only 2 boxes in BH. Ok, Master Marksman gave me some skills too but BH moves and mods are just god-like. Trust me, even without Medic skills, I am much more efficient in pvp than I was with only pistoleer skills. I was able to take down 4 ppl (combat medic - commando - CH / carbineer - TKA - none of them was master in any elite prof), me poisonned and 30% HAM left (being Zabrak helps a lot to survive, thanx vitalise / equilibrium. The Scatter Pistol is awesome, really...MUCH better than DX2. In fact, Scatter and DX2 aren't even in the same category, DX2 should be Marksman 1 or 2 cert, not elite cert. LLC is very good too but I am much too slow with it, perfect for lairs .



Conclusion :

I really fail to see who is the more powerfull between Rifleman and Pistoleer. If we consider DPS, Accuracy and Speed bonuses, Rifleman is much better than Pistoleer (talking about Masters) BUT if you consider everything, with bugs and so, Pistoleer is much more versatile and able to survive. The problem is the fact Pistoleer is better due to some bugs that causes Riflemen instant death or inaccuracy, while some other bugs allow both of them to shoot once per second. I have some problems to see who should be the best after fixes but one thing is sure : Pistoleers have many advantages that allow them to NOT being forced to grab another combat profession, Riflemen shouldn't specialise ONLY in Rifle or their role will be very limited to long range support.

Another misunderstanding ot the game is the comparison of professions in duel. Pistoleers are perfect duellists, RIFLEMEN ARE NOT MEANT TO DUEL ! They are meant to work as team, with teamates so. Riflemen : if you duel a pistoleer of the same lvl, either you are quite lucky and you One Shot him, either you're dead, he will run to you and leave you at 20m and spamm your chat with hits, you will just run and lose all your accuracy bonuses. My advice would be to NOT run away and try the one shot thing.

To finish with, I agree Riflemen have many concerns and suffer bugs much more than others. I really fail to see why you suffer the 2.5 melee dmg modifier, it is stupid. But you have to balance your incredible dmg output with some drawbacks, the worst one would be to be forced to grab another combat profession to survive at close range.

But please, stop stating you aren't accurate, you ARE very accurate, much more than Pistoleers. you aren't meant to move if firing while pistoleer is, this is what misled you.

Nice post, I agree with your last line:

"But please, stop stating you aren't accurate, you ARE very accurate, much more than Pistoleers. you aren't meant to move if firing while pistoleer is, this is what misled you."

What are the range modifiers of the weapons you were using? How did you test shots at a given range? How many trials did you have? These results aren't consistent with what I've seen. What posture were you in, and what posture was the target in? Was either the target or the shooter moving?

Also, using specials and not using specials will make a very large difference in accuracy for a pistoleer.

Forgot to mention 2 things :

- AP bug is common to EVERY weapon in the game, not only DX2. It works the exact same way with Scatter, SR Combat, Laser Rifle, Laser Carbine and whatever. This bug is due to the "weaknesses" parameters. In fact, someone stated once that this parameters was here to counter balance the AP vs AR thing, you can't go above the mob's weaknesses when same AP and AR lvl. It means if your raw dmg is 1000 and mob weakness in the dmg type you use is 30%, your REAL dmg can't go above 1300. But there is a problem because this is totally bugged : if the mob is AR0, 100% resistant everywhere BUT weakness in Energy (try some mereks on Endor, that is what some are - Assassin for example) you don't do any extra dmg with the AP1 of a SR Combat pistol, because weakness is stated as "energy : -", so 0. The mob isn't AR, weakness of 0 in Energy (but NO resist) and you get NO extra dmg due to AP. The rule is applying EVEN if the mob doesn't match the AR he should for the AP you used. This bug exists on all weapons, even AP2-3 ones.

- I get Novice BH from Marksman 0 4 0 4 and scout 4 1 4 2 in EXACTLY 6 hours. Trapping is very quick, weapons are very quick, only Survival was a bit long but not that long. Becoming BH's only drawback is the skill point use. But being Master Marksman / Scout gives you so many advantages that this feature isn't that horrible, it is even a good thing. I am now able to DOT an opponent in EVERY pool very quickly, it is much more efficient you can imagine. BH should really stop their "217 SP" thing, they seem to have no clue of what they are.

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Noules000 wrote:
What are the range modifiers of the weapons you were using? How did you test shots at a given range? How many trials did you have? These results aren't consistent with what I've seen. What posture were you in, and what posture was the target in? Was either the target or the shooter moving?

Also, using specials and not using specials will make a very large difference in accuracy for a pistoleer.

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I used all possible weapons to lvl up Noules, of course. I was placing myself at the best range (just examine the weapon to know where it is) and was only kneeling (I didn't even try prone, the mob warping bug should have killed me too often and I hate to make my pet die...a GSP or Kliknik Defender won't survive a Pubam).

To test shots at a given range, I used the logging feature and say something like "Using SG82, distance is 60" and fire many times. I need something like 30 hits to kill a Pubam if I'm not using specials with a SG82, much more if the mob is resisting, which isn't my concern here since I only want to test accuracy. Then I said something like "using SG82 at 20m" and parse results. This is very easy to do but it takes a very long time to gather enought data to be consistent.

Neither me or mobs were moving during fights, this is exactly the key of the results. I was testing accuracy, not accuracy while moving because riflemen aren't meant to move. Sometimes the target moved but it didn't affect that much. I can affirm mob didn't move for 90% of the time, the pet was keeping him in position very efficiently.

How many trials ? Enought to go from marksman 0 4 0 4 to Master, it takes many mobs (about 200) so it takes about 6000 hits total (carbine + rifle). Then I took 2 hours testing Pistols, something like 50 mobs, quite enought because it takes much more hits with a pistol than with a Rifle.

I agree using specials could change some results BUT my aim wasn't really to test specials, it was to test raw accuracy. It seems that some pistol specials are too accurate (I have 125 modifier so can't really say) but you are probably right here. Again, this wasn't my scheme to test this.

I know this isn't consistent with what you seem to see. The main difference is the time involved to find the best place and forcing the target to not move. I stated that it is really negated if you have to move or if the target is moving, something is definately bugged here. Even if not moving in PvP, accuracy at 60m to hit someone only strafing right and left was much lower. I think it is a bug, I hope at least.

oh, and it grants me something like 800k cred

The problem is that weapon accuracy (and even the optimal range) depends on the crafting of the weapon. Your specific instance of SG82 may (and probably does) have different range characteristics than someone else's. This is why we need to know the specific values of the weapon used.

We also need to know how many trials you had with each weapon and range so we can determine the margin of error of your results.

It's also important to state the posture in each instance. Were you kneeling with both rifle and pistol? Posture is extremely important - kneeling is the equivalent of +30 accuracy.

When you did use specials, what specials did you use? Marksman specials (overcharge shot) should have a higher accuracy mod than rifleman specials, and the ratio of specials to regular shots will skew the results.

Finally, mobs have different ranged defense modifiers. Your statement about resists seems to imply that you did not fight the same mob type throughout the test, so this is another uncontrolled factor.

Noules, I always purchase the best weapon I can find, whatever the price is (4.5 million creds atm). So for sure, the weapons I used were above average on my server. The point is still here : this weapon has nothing special and is easy to find, anyone can purchase it. So the specific modifiers isn't an issue. I will give them to you when I will log back in the game, won't be long.

It is now almost impossible to know how many trials were made with specific weapons. All I can say is that I used ALL of them at least for 10 mobs (the CDEF was really bothering me at marksman rifle 3, so I didn't used it that much ). What you have to understand is that my aime wasn't to state Riflemen are ok, so I tested it with controlled parameters and way enought to gather data and analyse them. It is only a matter of trust here, if you don't trust me, this is a completely different problem

Posture were ALWAYS : Rifle - Kneeling / Carbine - kneeling / Pistol - kneeling

ALWAYS



Specials weren't that much used because I only have access to marksman ones. I mainly used pool aiming ones. Never tried Overcharge, don't ask me why, the name makes me think it damages my weapon...yes I know, it is not worst than MindShot but hey, I don't like it


I don't know if there are different defense modifiers depending on the mobs - to be clear, I don't care at all - because there were so many mobs I for sure killed at least 6 or 7 of each different type with all different type of weapon. Now, i am unable to state how many Pubam Battlelord I killed with SG82 with precision, for sure. But you trully think it will negate all the results ? Imho, you're insisting on some tiny details here that won't change anything. There aren't many different mob types, there are somthing like 15 different Pubam kind (I don't talk about pubs and eerie spiritmasters, they die in a single hit). Max 15 different types, more than 250 total kills...really, you think it is relevant ?


Trust me, I wouldn't post with false numbers or argues just to make Riflemen liars. in fact, I even agreed with them on many concerns. If you are placed in the position you are supposed to be, you are better. The problem is that this position is very easy to negate, which isn't true with pistoleer's one.

I could add to be consistent with what you said in another thread that Rifleman is harder to play than Pistoleer. My poor feelings about Rifleman way of life can't compete yours, you are way more skilled and experienced than me with a Rifle, so I won't try to argue for the upper lvl players. But everything isn't as bad as we are used to read here.

The real concern is the fact Rifleman can't survive by itself with only Rifleman skills. Pistoleer can. Now, you only spent 92 points so you still have much more to spend, if you chose artisan and medic, for sure it won't help you hitting the mob at close range. This is a choice you have to make, so must pistoleers at a lesser degree. If a pistoleer want to be able to deal huge dmg, he must raise Rifleman skills, simple as that.


You can't have huge hits in perfect pool and still compete with defense, or you are overpowered.


Keep in mind I am not dealing with bugs, warping mobs is killer for Rifleman, not for Pistoleer. If this never happens, Rifleman would be much easier to play.

"Actually, the best overall weapon they have is the SG82 with nice DPS, Energy AP2 and nice accuracy. They take advantage of game design (that is bugged for a fair part) with this ability to use a "all-around" Rifle."

Correction, the sg82 has fair DPS, Cold Damage, and AP0 +16 at 35m

T-21 AP3 Energy
E-11 Rifle AP2 Energy
Laser Rifle AP2 Energy
Jawa Ion AP1 Stun

Currently Bugged
Tusken Rifle AP1 Kinetic Damage (In game its damage type is energy)
Spraystick AP0 Acid Damage (In game its damage type is energy)

nice post I disagree on many things but i'm not here to troll I'm just correcting you On the sg82.

good day

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Dyriel wrote:

Keep in mind I am not dealing with bugs, warping mobs is killer for Rifleman, not for Pistoleer. If this never happens, Rifleman would be much easier to play.

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Mind telling me how your avoiding the warping mob thing? Cause I get hit by them several times a day when I'm hunting, sometimes I get several in a row! I am a pistoleer, I lay prone with mask scent at 50m to get a couple of free shots in, once the mob starts running, I kipup and suppresion fire, throw snare trap and run out again to 50m. Sometimes, even if their snared, they end up on top of me once they stand up from suppression fire, that's why I have to run out to 50m, or else I'll be dead. If this is the same that is happening to rifleman, then why are you saying that it's hitting them more then me? Or is this bug a class specific bug? like the ones that say's, oh, he's a rifleman, Scotty, beam me up and back down on that sniper wannabe! The bugs affect's us all, not one more then the other, and since we have to be in close range there is another bug that you might not be aware of, it's called the MOB longarm bug, it's the one where any mob can hit you from 30+meter's away, can you imagine a gnort bitting you from 30m out? well, I'm having that problem, are rifleman having that problem? probably not since they are always at max range, where I can't be unless I want to miss 3/4 of the time.

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Glaza-X wrote:

"Actually, the best overall weapon they have is the SG82 with nice DPS, Energy AP2 and nice accuracy. They take advantage of game design (that is bugged for a fair part) with this ability to use a "all-around" Rifle."

Correction, the sg82 has fair DPS, Cold Damage, and AP0 +16 at 35m

T-21 AP3 Energy
E-11 Rifle AP2 Energy
Laser Rifle AP2 Energy
Jawa Ion AP1 Stun

Currently Bugged
Tusken Rifle AP1 Kinetic Damage (In game its damage type is energy)
Spraystick AP0 Acid Damage (In game its damage type is energy)

nice post I disagree on many things but i'm not here to troll I'm just correcting you On the sg82.

good day

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Oh yes, sorry...it is the E-11. You're right

All these weapons are kinda new for me, I hope you understand I can forget some names

Bolanos, I was actually talking about potential bug fix, there is no known 100% working way to avoid this...bah, it is a bug.

Sure a pet will grab agro from you BUT since you die in a single hit, it is even sad your pet did agro, because he will die.