Pistoleer Archive

I won't be able to post anything from the devs here, unless they approve it, so I'm not sure a flood of info will be making it's way here via me. However, the more important point is that indeed, devs are there to read our posts and we have submitted a #1 issue (all professions).

NOTE: They asked for one issue, and so disarming shot 1/2 fix is our #1 issue if they only wanted a very specific issue. Otherwise, I kept this focused on pistoleer specials as our "issue", and slipped the DX2 in there since it's critical to our specials being effective in PvP, since it's our only good AR1 weapons..well..in theory it's good, right now it's sub-par.

NOTE2: I think if MTPS becomes health targeted cone AOE, disarming 2 is medium random HAM conedamage w/effect, and PBAOE2 get's a range boost to make it usable in PvP, then our AOE offering will be pretty solid. PBS2, same thing, needs a range boost, PMD2/PMD1, both need range boosts to be consistent with other melee professions (lag issue), and PMD2 obviously needs some special effect or ANYTHING to make it useful. Double Tap is not a bad earlier tier special, if kip up shot is only usable to change position (which is was intended to be), then we won't feel so bad about DT not being effective. It IS effective, just not when compared to kip up shot. Yeah, hate me for that, but I think it was the right move. Obviously issues like defense and dual wielding etc. will be ongoing concerns, but this was a report focused on special ability fixes, which IMO, is what is currently holding us back the most.

This is a good first pass list. If speed is changed (which sounds like it will impact ALL pistoleer specials), and defense are being adjusted up, combined with this, I think we'd be on the road to recovery.

-----------------

Top Issue: Pistoleers don't feel pistoleer, as a profession, is complete on it's own as an effective combat profession, one reason being the usefulness of the pistoleer special abilities.

Details:One major cause for this is the special abilities in the pistoleer tree lack versatility and effectiveness, and in some cases, do not work at all. Being the master of the pistol, yet not having the best (or equal to the best) pistol selection, and ability selection, makes pistoleers a "dabbler" profession, rather than a complete combat profession through mastery.

Suggestions:

Ranked in order.

1. Disarming Shot 1/2: Fix the disarming shots to be useful in both PvE and PvP. Intimidate would be unique and would fit "disarming" in a way, or a panic effect. Intimidate was voted highest liked, since it's unique to pistoleers. Disarming shot 2is suggested to be a cone AOEversion of disarming 1, with a better effect or better chance to land the effect. Disarming shot 1 is a very low tier special, we don't want everyone with easy access to it if it's wildly useful.

2. Body Shot3: Raise damage to 3.0. This is not unbalanced because the other pistol pool-targeted specials are not only 3.0 damage, but include DOT or blind/mind pool. Having 3.0 alone would still have BH pistol specials being superior. (2.75dmg/2.2 delay could also be substiuted, but not preferred..same DPS). Recall, current DPS is less than body shot 2, this is a big demoralizer. (or add another damage component like bleed or dot or wounding)

3. MultiTargetPistolShot: Master level coneeffect attack.1st preference is to make it health targeted (like body shot 2 AOE cone), second preference is to make it a cone AOE random HAM damage. Cone effect seems easiest to manage for players and (once fixed) should be straightforward. If disarming shot 2 does random HAM damage, this would ideally be health pool targeted so there is some versatility, or obviously, will be higher damage since disarming is focused on some "disabling" effect and not damage.

4. DX2 Pistol: Investigate stats of this pistol and why this cannot be crafted easily to high stats (Scatter easier to craft, more effectve in every way), consider changing range to better match other pistols accuracy ideal range, point blank range ideal for a pistoleer pistol seems undesireable. Pistoleers find they would rather purchase other professions just to have a better pistol, and as the master of the pistol, that doesn't seem right. Some suggest that requiring 4 power handlers, but only getting benefit from a single power handler, is part of the issue, not sure how relevant that is.

5. Stopping Shot: Either increase damage so that it's more similar to last ditch, and/or add a state effect that makes it sound like the description "stop an onrushing attacker in his tracks by killing or incapacitating him with one shot."As it is, the Damage Per Second on stopping shot is WORSE than the overcharge 1 marksman special, and doubletap, of course, making it only useful for the 'ole bounty hunter pistoleer dabblers.

6. Pistol Melee Defense 2: Consider something to make this worth using over a ranged attack (that probably does more damage like fan shot, PBsingle, etc.) State effect? Being knocked in the head with a pistol might cause a stun or blind, for instance. NOTE: PIstol melee defense 1 and 2 need their range adjusted up so that they avoid the same range/lag issues melee professions currently face.

7. PBAOE2 increase the range to 24-32m so that it is more useful. As it is, it's basically like a melee attack. Make sure the AOE works, currently, it only hits one target.

8. DoubleTap: If you make marksman special kip up shot only usable when you are prone/kneeling, then this solves the imbalance here. Roll shot makes you roll, so you cannot run while using it, and if kip up shot is changed to be only usable when prone/kneeling, then the advantage of doubletap, even though it's less damage, is that you can fire it at any time, while running, etc. We think this was intended anyway.

9. Point blank single 2: There really is no advantage to using a point blank shot, when point blank attacks are primarily designed to remove range penalty. Consider siilar to PBAOE2, to increase range to 24-32m or so, to make it more useful.

10. HealthShot2: Since damage of DOT is only done every 20 seconds, then damage per shot is all that matters. Boost this to 3.0 damage instead of 2.0, making itmore effective since pistols fire fast, but don't hit hard, making bleeds less effective for pistol users overall.

Note: Pistoleers seem to want fan shot left alone, since it's actually one of the working specials that does OK damage (but same as current kip up shot, which is discussed above)

If there are other ways to spice up pistoleer without adding significant "power" it would probably be well received.

Heh, everyone seemed to like the idea of fixing the Republic Blaster certification, hightening the damage someand giving it to Master Pistoleers. Maybe slip that in if you get a chance?

Keep up the great work!

jaegen, I wrote in my last post dealing with our issues that I won't comment anything since Dev Team wasn't reading (actually, it seems they weren't commenting). You bring my hope back with this post on the general discussion, was a very nice move that forces them to react, let's hope they will.

DX2 and our skills being broken is the most important for Pistoleers, for sure. But I have something way more important to say about the whole fighting system right now. I do know I am the ONLY one to say it and I don't care no one agrees with it : as a correspondant, you are able to let them know real numbers.

You dealt with speed cap and they answered us they will change speed caps for different weapons (only ranged ones btw, what happened with melees ?). The problem will not only remain, it will be WAY WORST thant it is now (BH flaming us should love us instead, they should learn to count too).

Someone in another post asked for the Real Delay Formula, I replied in his post, let me quote myself :

---

to clarify things a bit, the formula is :

RD = ( WS x MD ) x ( 1 - SMod/100)

where WS stands for Weapon Speed
MD for Move Speed (1 for normal attack)
SMod for Speed Modifier
RD for Real Delay

You can write the exact same thing like this :


WS x MD = RD / (1 - SMod/100)


The error in this formula is for ppl reaching 100 Speed Modifier (or above). If you reach 100 speed, there is a "division by 0" which makes no sense, it is impossible (have no time to explain this, just trust me : you can't divide by 0, basic math rule). This problem is never met in the game for the simple reason there is a "shortcut" in the algorythm stating that if speed is under 1, then the result is 1.

As a result, whatever the weapon you use, whatever the attack you use, if your speed is 100 or more, your delay will ALWAYS be 1. This can't be discussed.

The evident failure of the formula have many explainations :

1) cap of "1 sec dly min" is just plain stupid.
2) BH and other profs can stack their speed mods, which bring them above 100 (129 for BH / pistoleer)
3) even without reaching 100, above 75 you start to see how rare are the pistols not reaching 1 dly for even Stopping Shot


The new cap system is only the first step of what MUST be done :

- .5 dly for pistols
- 1 dly for carbines
- 3 dly for Rifles


This makes MANY sense, you can argue what you want, this is simply LOGICAL.

But IF BH / Pistoleer can still raise their speed mod to 129, they will reach this .5 dly ALL THE TIME, making them WAY more deadly than what they already are.


So in addition of new Delay Cap, they should limit speed mods to :

- 80 for pistol
- 65 for carbines
- 50 for Rifles

(Those numbers can be discussed, I made NO math, just an idea, not a final result).

Now it makes much more sense since if you want to reach the .5 cap with normal shoot, you still can (with a very fast weapon) but in no way you can use Stopping Shot with .5 dly.



I've said it at least 50 times, I really hope Philosopher or Jeagen or anyone else with perfect English language could try to understand what I mean and try to explain it to others. I think no one is caring when I am conviced it is THE solution to the problem.

---

I've changed something misleading everyone. As you can see, RD (Real Delay) is just a VARIABLE, no matter what the value is. You can even put a 0.0000000000001 dly cap, if Speed Mods aren't capped too, you will reach this value each time you are above 100 Speed Mod. This is because the end resuslt will be NEGATIVE, so you'll be bring back to the cap.

I fail to see why everyone isn't concerned by this, this is the most unbalancing thing in the game, i've said it many many times and still no reasonnable answer beside those stupid "casual BH" thinking I am calling for a nerf.

So please, just let them know the Speed Mod problem, this has nothing to do with speed cap. Speed Mods SHOULD NOT stack or be above a said value.

Kudos Jaegen. Let's hope they LISTEN this time and dont raise costs/etc. like they thick headedly did with pistol whip 2... the opposite of what you suggested when no one uses it. Anyways great post everyone will agree and with the order ytou put them.

Thanks Jaegen for all your hard work. I like the Disarm idea (intimidate). I think getting our own panic shot may be a bad idea, it is highly likely it will be on the same timer as KD is now. I think it would be pretty worthless to waste it on that. And yeah, wwho doesn't want the DX2 to be better.

Thanks for continuing to fight for us Jaegen

I've lost a lot of the will for it personally. I've got BH and plan to give up most of my Pistoleer, of course possibly revisited again in light of future changes.

But since the BH forum is a bunch of screaming spamming kids that don't understand the game, run tests, parse values, etc..., I'll still be primarily involved on this forum where some sanity can be found.

Disarm 1 & 2 broke = fix with Intimidate state effect, tweak HAM cost and damageto scale right.

Bodyshot 3 ineffective = tweak it to scale better in comparison to Bodyshot 2.

DX2 ineffective = tweak it to scale better in comparison to a scatter pistol?

We don't want a panic shot or action delay shot, seriously it will just get put on a timer and suck bad and waste a special.

Defense mods wont be fixed for us til they figure out how to fix them for everybody so it's a non-issue, and they're already working on it anyways.

Noooo. we lost Yeti too :/

Ah well, fitting. Bounty Hunters ARE better pistol users, and have heavy weapons to boot, and eyeshot, no matter what, will continue to reign supreme.

Good stuff. Really hope it all goes thru since it should siginificalty help.

Well, eyeshot will reign supreme until mind is healable. The blind component is great but I get the impression that will be master BH, as it should. So lets also join the lobby to get mind healed! (sorry BH and Riflemen, but it really needs to be.)

I would still like fanshot to be a cone (SS and Fan are pretty much the same and will remain so, with SS possibly being better if we get more speed mods.) It would be the run and gun version of PBA2. Hopefully they don't just leave as is if they don't add a cone otherwise once again at the speed cap SS is better than Fan (a higher tier ability.)

And the crafting issue on the DX2 is hopefully something we can get worked on from the weaponsmiths point of view as well. they have plenty of issues with guns requiring specific resources that may or may not spawn (their ultimate rifle, for instance needs rainbow gems. Those have yet to appear on my server, ahazi.) The DX2 is one of those types of things, where it is very difficult to craft...requiring multiple factory components (all need the same serial number) and doesn't give the bang for the effort involved. Like I said, the Weaponcrafter Correspondent may be able to support us on that issue so we aren't coming at it from our POV only.

Jaegen, personally, I would have limited the scope of the #1 issue right now to outright broken special moves (not ones that are merely un-useful). The main goal would be to keep the programmers heads from melting when they read it.

So the list would 'only' include Disarm1&2, PMD2, PBA2, MTPS, and PBA2.

I thought Jaegen's post was _awesome_. Exactly what we need to tell the Devs. I especially like his suggestions that BodyShot2 get 3.0 damage, that MTPS because an AOE Health attack, that Disarm2 get AOE Intimidate, and that Stopping Shot get a state effect.

I'm really sorry to see you go Yeti ... of course if I was smart I'd do the exact same thing, because right now I could be just as effective with only 3 boxes of Pistoleer. But I'ma sucker, I guess.

Easy,

Heheh. Well, the carbineer did the meltdown version with more bullets, and they weren't even numbered, so I too the middle road. Limited it to 10, I specifically say (not in the above, but in the original) for the devs to use #1, disarming shot 1/2, if they want one specific issue. I know what you mean though..but if I have to wait one month for each bullet item, no way.

Regarding Yeti's move.

Yep.

To be good in PvP with a pistol, the best choice is bounty hunter, plain and simple.

To be the best pistol/heavy weapons combo, again, the best choice is BH.

Eyeshot moving to mastery will only make bounty hunters "more" effective, since you will no longer be able to dabble and get it. Sad, really, that was one of the only things keeping me a master pistoleer (well, that and needing to play one to know what the F I am talking about).