Pistoleer Archive

I've seen a number of excellent ideas for how to address the speed problem, and I'd like to present mine to see what you guys think.

First, let's name the issues:

• As implemented, the effects of the speed skill are exponential, so small increases at high skill levels make a huge difference.


• At high speed skills, everyone, using any weapon, or any special, fires once a second. So class, weapon, and specials balance is all ruined. There should be the variety of slow but hard hitting and fast but light hitting classes / weapons / specials, but that's not possible currently.


• Speed skills stack, overpowering dabblers, and to some degree hurting Riflemen because there is no rifle line in BH (the main issue here is the lack of more accuracy to stack since Riflemen get so much speed in their own tree, but this exact same fix could be applied to improve accuracy balance as well.)


• Smugglers suffer since they could really use some accuracy and speed mods in their Dirty Tricks line, but they'd be even easier to dabble in, and would cause further problems, so it can't realistically be done at this time.


• Any fix for these problems can't result in BH and Smuggler starting over as if they didn't have the Marksman skills to begin with.

How do we fix this? It's really quite easy!

Currently: Speed is a skill that starts at zero and goes up as you increase in level.

Proposed: Speed would be an ABILITY with absolute values that you get with certain skill boxes. The highest speed ability you have is the one that gets used.

Let's see how this would work:

Currently: You reach Master Pistoleer and have 30 speed. You take three boxes of Pistoleer Special Abilities and gain 23 speed (5 from novice, 6 per box in the Specials line). You then take three boxes of BH Pistol and gain 40 speed (the BH pistol line gives pistol speed steps of 10, 10, 20, 10). So you now have 93 speed, and you don't have more than 3 skill boxes in any elite profession!

Proposed: Effective speed would be:

Weapon Speed * Specials Delay / Pistol Speed Ability.

Therefore:
Speed skill 0 = a speed ability of 1
Speed skill 25 = a speed ability of 1.33
Speed skill 50 = a speed ability of 2
Speed skill 75 = a speed ability of 4
Speed skill 80 = a speed ability of 5

** For an introduction to this, I will suggest using Speed Ability values that closely follow current behavior as far as effective speed decrease / increase in DPS goes. As a footnote below I will comment on possible further changes. **

So:
At Novice Marksman you have a "Pistol Speed" ability of 1, so you shoot at your weapon's displayed speed. As you go up Marksman Pistol your "Pistol Speed" ability changes to 1.1, 1.15, 1.2, 1.3. At Master Marksman AND Novice Pistoleer, make it 1.4. As you go up the BH Pistol tree increase it to 2, 3, 4, 5 - and it will behave similarly to how it does now. In the Pistoleer Special Abilities line, have it go up to 1.5, 2, 3, 4, and finally to 5 at Master. I would also recommend adding Pistol Speed Ability steps to the Smuggler Dirty Tricks line (and accuracy too), probably at steps of 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 - or something like that. Possibly with a further boost at Master Smuggler to 4?

So it doesn't matter if you have Pistol Specials III (Pistol Speed ability 4), BH Pistol III (4), and Smuggler Dirty Tricks III (2.5) - they don't stack! You simply use the best one you have, so you have a Pistol Speed Ability of 4.

I believe this would address every issue identified above, and therefore be an excellent solution.

I also propose the following footnote ideas:

- This should be done for accuracy as well so that accuracy mods can be given to Smugglers, and so that BH + Pistol characters (same for Carbineers) don't have too much accuracy, effectively penalizing Riflemen because they don't have somewhere else to pick up addition skill increases from.

- Because these examples are geared to simulate current Speed Skill behavior, it's still non-linear and gives major increases in DPS with the last couple steps of Speed Ability improvements. So I would also recommend that the Speed Ability be capped lower than the 5 that would be necessary to reproduce current behavior - at either 3 or 4 - and an additional "Improved Damage Ability" be added that you gain at high skill levels (such as an Improved Damage rating of 1.25 at Pistol Specials IV, BH Pistol IV, and Smuggler Dirty Tricks IV, and a rating of 1.5 at master for those 3 professions, or even 1.5 and 2.0 - whatever is deemed necessary to keep DPS around the right spot while stopping speed from changing everything to a 1.0 firing rate).

- Carbineers should probably get identical values as Pistoleers, or at least very similar (maybe a touch less Carbine Speed Ability and a little more Improved Damage Ability to balance them since they're supposed to fire a bit slower, but hit harder).

- Riflemen should definitely be skewed more towards getting higher Improved Damage ratings and not as much speed. They should always fire more slowly than Pistoleers and Carbineers, but should have their damage jacked up at higher levels to balance the decreased firing rate.

So - what does everything think of this?

Yeti, I agree with your goals (non-stacking and less exponential increase in power), but I got to think that there's got to be a simpler way.

... I don't know what that way is yet, but there's gotta be as simpler way.

Dyriel said:

"Imho, not allowing some mods (it should be EVERY mod) to stack is the only way to balance things. BH at same speed than Pistoleers are better than them, better than Carbineers and still can use Rifles...plus LLC. BH aren't even close to lose vs any of those, so we can take from them some absurd powers they shouldn't have."

Again another request to nerf BH. I guess it is the new math, 92= 217 skill points. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else to master other professions. No, unless he/she is stupid a BH should win in PvP against a pistoleer/carbineer etc., IF they have not supplemented their profession with other skills. The reason is not because of BH pistol line, but because of the other complementary skills.

Well, you can do the same as well. Want ranged knowckdown?Pickup a few boxes of carbineer or better still master it. That would still leave you with enough points to be able to use stim C's to heal yourself at 1000+ points a shot. Pistoleer + CH mastery or Pistoleer + Combat Medic, all are tremendous combinations for PvP and PvE. Of course having multiple skill sets would mean one would have to think tactics to use them, not blindly hit a combat macro .

We have been nerfed enough, our carbine line is almost worthless in PvE (in PvP all I need is one KD, so 30 sec timer is irrevelant) why don't you get the developers to fix what is broken (eg. defense etc.) before calling for balance nerfs. And the balance issue should be 250 skill points vs 250 skill points not 92 vs 217.

It takes 350+ playing hours to go through the investigation line in BH, our marks con red with 10-13K HAM. Any more nerfs and we will not be able to do our missions anymore.

Next, you will be going after Commandos who have had to master marksman and unarmed to getto their profession but do not even get to use those skills. As heavy weapons do not stack with ranged weapon mods.

BTW, when are you getting your twirly move, I might just pickup novice pistoller when that gets implemented .

Tanks, how is it a request to nerf BH? I think he's just nerfing dabblers, which is what most BHs on the BH forum hate.

Don't be a jerk to him. He is not saying to nerf BHs at all.

"...BH aren't even close to lose vs any of those, so we can take from them some absurd powers they shouldn't have"

This is not a call for nerf?

Well if you read more closely the only "powers" he is talking about is the ability to dabble in both BH and Pistol to get over +100 speed.

I bet if I posted a "nerf the BH dabblers" post in the BH forum I'd get tons of support ... those guys hate the pistoleers that dabble in BH.

Well, he is comparing "pure" professions and then saying BH has an advantage that should be corrected especially seeing BH can use multiple weapons, LLC etc. That is not really how the game is designed. You have 250 skill points to use and comparing 92 vs 217 and saying it is unbalanced is a fallacy.

Once the pets come into equation PvP becomes tactics not just people spamming specials at each other. I don't go around saying combat profession / Master CH is unbalanced because I just can't own them right away and actually have to think.

Same thing with Commandos, people complain because they stay within the 16m special range and get 1 hit killed, then ask for a nerf, because they don't want to use their head in PvP. (Now, revenge TEF with commando getting the first shot is something else entirely, same thing for me as well, I think the revenge TEF should be done away with, but that's anoter post ).

I guess I am a easy to react when I see a post that calls for limiting another class. Especially mine . If everyone has their way we won't have any skills at lower levels, everything would be moved to Master and of course it would be kinda hard to get there with just marksman skills.

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Tanks wrote:

"...BH aren't even close to lose vs any of those, so we can take from them some absurd powers they shouldn't have"

This is not a call for nerf?

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OK, I was really confused at first by this and a couple other comments, then I realized what was going on... Tanks is replying to a post by Dyriel that is different in content and only somewhat similar in theme to my original post!

I am not calling for a nerf to BHs at all! My base suggestion would leave 100% of BH exactly as it is, only changing the way some skills worked so that BH + Carbineer or BH + Pistoleer did not stack entirely (you'd still gain extra certs, extra defensive skills, extra special abilities, and the ability to use more different weapons, but your accuracy and speed wouldn't stack).

My further (footnoted) suggestions for improvements WOULD make some change that would affect BH, but they should have zero net effect on your power. The max speed attained by BHs *AND* Pistoleers, Riflemen, and Carbineers would be lowered, and a damage increase ability added to bring damage back up to where it was.

Ya know, I've been trying to think of a better way to do the speed formula, and I can't figure out a simple equation that works.

Here's the my general goals:

1. The speed of a weapon should always affect it's actual speed.


2. Fast weapons should always be faster than slow weapons, at similar skill levels.


3. The speed cap, whatever it is, should rarely be hit, by any weapon with any skill.

My hunch is that the only way to achieve this would be a "global nerf" to attack speed. so that a really fast pistol wielded by a master pistoleer (or BH), or TKA master attack speed,would be like 1.5 seconds, and everything else would be slower. by extrapolation, doing a special move with rifle, pike, or heavy weapon would be insanely slow.

I think such a system would be internally consistent. But then mobs would have to be adjusted so they don't attack every 1 or 2 seconds. State effects and knockdowns would probably need to last longer. You'd now have the problem of people being able to run 64m while only being shot at once.

And it would make combat really drawn out. This might be cool, or it might be really boring. (and, oh my god, just think how long it would take to blow up lairs).

You seem to have two ideas in here. One, the concept of non-stacking speed bonuses, is pretty much universally (at least that is my perception) accepted as a good overall fix to the breaking speed formula.

Your second idea is a strange perversion of the current speed formula. In its current form, you gain exponentially increasing benefit from small bonuses the higher up you are in the tree. Your idea essentially reverses this and gives you exponentially decreasing speed bonuses.

In the current example, a pistoleer's DPS increase due to speed follows this pattern:

Nov----42.9%
I---------56.3%
II--------72.4%
III--------92.3%
IV-------117.4%
Master-284.6%

Under your proposal, it would effectively follow this pattern:

Nov----33%%
I---------50%
II--------100%
III--------200%
IV-------300%
Master-400%

Certainly more linear, but it would also represent an increase in power for all professions using your sample numbers. Unless I misunderstood your proposal. This might not be desireable, as it just further widens the gap of high DPS vs low DPS professions.

Ugh - yep - you're misunderstanding me Zerona, but that's because I did a poor job with my example

My proposal initially says "Here's how to replace speed skill with an ability that doesn't stack, but does the same thing", and then afterwards says "but we should probably limit that so that high speed stops capping everything at 1 second".

My example was intended to represent the first half of that, and I paid a fair amount of attention to trying to make the Marksman and BH new Speed Ability values track the current behavior. Then once I had the values (running up to 5), I just reused them and spread them out in the Pistoleer tree.

So on the one hand they wouldn't be that bad and would give a Master Pistoleer character the same speed as a BH Pistol IV character.

On the other hand I did not do a good job of tracking how things are now like I intended to because this:
A) Ignores the fact that Pistoleer speed bonuses are primarily bunched up in Master Pistoleer.
and B) Ignores the fact that unless a Pistoleer picks up Master Marksman, a BH ends up with a 6 pt higher speed (80 vs 74) than a Pistoleer, which does make a significant difference at that point in the speed skill curve.

Sorry for the confusion! What I should have said was the following:

Pistoleer would get these values:
Novice - 1.43 Pistol Speed Ability
Specials I - 1.56 Pistol Speed Ability
Specials II - 1.72 Pistol Speed Ability
Specials III - 1.92 Pistol Speed Ability
Specials IV - 2.17 Pistol Speed Ability
Master - 3.85 Pistol Speed Ability

And THEN - in my footnotes section, mentioned:

- The huge difference in speed seen between Specials IV and Master Pistoleer should probably be spread out over the entire Specials line.

- The final value for Speed Ability at Master Pistoleer should also probably be the same as it is at BH Pistols IV.

Thanks or catching that Zerona! I got lazy after I figured out the numbers to use to have Marksman / BH track current behavior well

We ALL (but some BHs) agree with that : Speed and Accuracy mods should not stack.

Now, we can set some caps that will prevent many things to happen. Like the ability someone may have to shoot much faster that he is intended to.

In the current form, the very loser is the pure pistoleer, then the pure Carbineer, than at a lesser lvl and FAR above others, the Rifleman.


Speed mods should be capped, let's say 80 for Pistol, 70 for Carbine and 60 for Rifle. This way, no chance a Rifle can fire once per second their deadly moves and no chance for BH to have high dmg with high delay weapons firing once per second. We don't even need to change minimum delay cap, they won't reach them btw (or their weapon will be much weaker that what they have atm).

This would balance things way more than anything and would fit with what was intended : pistol are fast with slow dmg, Carbines are avg in both and Rifles are more accurate and deliver more dmg but much slower.

of course, we should do the same thing for accuracy.



BTW, I see MANY threads dealing with pistoleer's accuracy vs Riflemen's one. Pistoleers bonueses aren't that huge BUT they do stack with BH...so a Master Pistoleer and a BH Pistol 4 is very fast, very accurate AND deals huge dmg. This is what must change but nerfing Pistoleers's accuracy won't change anything.


Imho, not allowing some mods (it should be EVERY mod) to stack is the only way to balance things. BH at same speed than Pistoleers are better than them, better than Carbineers and still can use Rifles...plus LLC. BH aren't even close to lose vs any of those, so we can take from them some absurd powers they shouldn't have.

Here is something to chew on. I f they don't implement a block on speed and so on from crossing elite lines, then when or, if , pistoleer gets new min delay of .5 watchout. Alls a BH has to do at that point is spend 6 training points to become novice pistoleer to get same benifit. So much for pvp then; that one speed change will allow them to double the damage they do now with pistol.

And looking at how fast their specials work now no other classstands a chance other than to gang up in mass or blind side with a lucky shot.