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Thread: Do novice ships need a mass increase?
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FuryoftheStars
Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:56 pm
#1
Note: This is about changes to novice ships' mass only. Please do not bring the Interceptor, etc into this asking for more mass on them. (Only exception to this is the TIE Fighter, non /In model.) Create your own thread for those.
I can speak with the most confidence when talking about the Z-95 as there is more data out there to support it. The TIE Light Duty and Fighter I can speak of with common sense (but the Light Duty may be a Dev invention), where as the Syck is a purely Dev invented craft, but hey... if rebels and Imperials can get an increase, why not Privateers too?
Please reply with your concerns/questions if they weren't answered in here. I will reply directly to the message as well as make an edit to the end of this post updating it for future readers (who seem to dislike reading beyond the initial post
).
Z-95 mass should be increased to approx. 80k mass. (should be higher than A-Wing, but lower than X-Wing.)
Ok, only 12k mass on the Z-95 while the X-Wing gets 100k and the A-wing is 65k? Now anyone who knows the EU Z-95 would know that it is the ship that inspired the X-wing. It isn't as bad-ass, but it was still a 'heavier' fighter than an A-wing. If you were to stick a Z-95 right next to an X-Wing (with s-foils closed), what would be the first thing that would pop into your mind? One could very easily mistake the Z-95 for another X-Wing. Why is that? Because the Z-95 was the forerunner for the X-Wing. The only real difference (physically) between the 2 is that the Z-95 has 1 less set of wings and it's 1 meter shorter. Performance wise, the Z-95 is just as fast as the X-Wing, but not as manueverable and, of course, not as much firepower capabilities. Otherwise they were just about identical.
Z-95 per Star Wars Data base
(following part actually can be applied to all 3 novice ships)
Ok, hopefully that part was convincing enough for those who know the Z-95, but I can still see some disagreeing for the following reason. "It's a novice's fighter." Ok, true. But what can a novice do with an 80k fighter that they couldn't do with a 12k? Not a whole heck of a lot. They are still limited by their equipment certs. Now what about masters? The Z-95 actually becomes useful. They can actually stick higher level stuff into it other than 2 or 3, making it so the craft won't become obsolete once you get qualified for the Y-Wing. The Z-95 is not an obsolete craft yet... it's just not as commonly used. (check the definition of obsolete and the link I provided above for the Z-95 before flaming me on that.)
TIE Fighter and Light Duty should get a mass increase to represent their correct size in comparison to other TIEs. TIE Fighter should be closer to 30k mass, while the Light Duty should be closer to 20-25k mass.
I'm not really sure where their masses should fall, but that's set one thing straight. The Light Duty does appear to be Dev invented and the Fighter (non /In) is an obsolete craft. The Fighter/In is it's replacement. Now, as such, the /In is only a little bit better than the standard Fighter, not a whole heck of a lot. If the /In gets 40k Mass, then it only makes sense for the Fighter to get a mass that is closer to it, but obviously a little bit less. Same goes with the Light Duty. The LD is nothing more than the standard TIE with a few things removed (per the Dev's description of the craft). So, once again, the LD should get a mass that is closer to that of the Fighter, but obviously a little bit less. However, neither craft should get a mass increase that makes them better than the /In, as the /In is supposed to be the newest and best of the 3.
Dev invented craft of Syck should see a mass increase as well.
Because it is a Dev invented craft, they know the best as to where it's mass should be (sorry privateers). But in all fairness, it really should get an increase. 12k mass makes it virtually useless to anyone other than a novice.
One thing that I noticed with the Dev's creation of all these ships for the game, they attempted to balance mass/manueverability/amongst other things in an attempt to make it so a tier 1 ship will still be useful even when your at master level. Only exceptions to that are with Imperials (as some of their craft truly are obsolete) and Privateers (as most of their craft are invented by the devs and therefore rest soly in their hands). However, they seemed to have forgotten about the novice ships. As it stands, all novice ships are useless after tier 1.
Q1. Concern: Increased mass on Z-95 may phase out higher level ships, such as the Y-Wings.
A1. Response: Possibly. It is really hard to tell for sure, but I would think that there would be at least some continued use of the fighters due to their heavier mass (for more/better systems) and because they naturally have a heavier payload capability. This would apply more so to higher level players, though, and not those grinding their way up.
Q2. Suggestion: Instead of increasing mass on the Novice Z-95 and Syck, just create a second, 'heavy' version of them.
A1. Response: This may be a better solution. Just consider the Novice versions as being stripped down ones (much like the Light Duty TIE) and then the 'heavier' ones (or standard versions) are put about where they should be.
Q3. Disagreement: Increasing mass of Z-95 to 80k is absurd.
A3. Response: And leaving a medium class ship at 12k (or even only increasing a little) is just as absurd.
Q4. Suggestion: Instead of increaing mass to novice ships, just change them to work similarly to droid modules, where you have the basic level 1 and as you get better you can aquire better versions of it. Have a minimum level to some ships, in relation to where they currently are in the skill boxes.
A4. Response: That could work, but I see more work involved in it to make sure that everything meshes together properly.
I can speak with the most confidence when talking about the Z-95 as there is more data out there to support it. The TIE Light Duty and Fighter I can speak of with common sense (but the Light Duty may be a Dev invention), where as the Syck is a purely Dev invented craft, but hey... if rebels and Imperials can get an increase, why not Privateers too?
Please reply with your concerns/questions if they weren't answered in here. I will reply directly to the message as well as make an edit to the end of this post updating it for future readers (who seem to dislike reading beyond the initial post
).Z-95 mass should be increased to approx. 80k mass. (should be higher than A-Wing, but lower than X-Wing.)
Ok, only 12k mass on the Z-95 while the X-Wing gets 100k and the A-wing is 65k? Now anyone who knows the EU Z-95 would know that it is the ship that inspired the X-wing. It isn't as bad-ass, but it was still a 'heavier' fighter than an A-wing. If you were to stick a Z-95 right next to an X-Wing (with s-foils closed), what would be the first thing that would pop into your mind? One could very easily mistake the Z-95 for another X-Wing. Why is that? Because the Z-95 was the forerunner for the X-Wing. The only real difference (physically) between the 2 is that the Z-95 has 1 less set of wings and it's 1 meter shorter. Performance wise, the Z-95 is just as fast as the X-Wing, but not as manueverable and, of course, not as much firepower capabilities. Otherwise they were just about identical.
Z-95 per Star Wars Data base
(following part actually can be applied to all 3 novice ships)
Ok, hopefully that part was convincing enough for those who know the Z-95, but I can still see some disagreeing for the following reason. "It's a novice's fighter." Ok, true. But what can a novice do with an 80k fighter that they couldn't do with a 12k? Not a whole heck of a lot. They are still limited by their equipment certs. Now what about masters? The Z-95 actually becomes useful. They can actually stick higher level stuff into it other than 2 or 3, making it so the craft won't become obsolete once you get qualified for the Y-Wing. The Z-95 is not an obsolete craft yet... it's just not as commonly used. (check the definition of obsolete and the link I provided above for the Z-95 before flaming me on that.)
TIE Fighter and Light Duty should get a mass increase to represent their correct size in comparison to other TIEs. TIE Fighter should be closer to 30k mass, while the Light Duty should be closer to 20-25k mass.
I'm not really sure where their masses should fall, but that's set one thing straight. The Light Duty does appear to be Dev invented and the Fighter (non /In) is an obsolete craft. The Fighter/In is it's replacement. Now, as such, the /In is only a little bit better than the standard Fighter, not a whole heck of a lot. If the /In gets 40k Mass, then it only makes sense for the Fighter to get a mass that is closer to it, but obviously a little bit less. Same goes with the Light Duty. The LD is nothing more than the standard TIE with a few things removed (per the Dev's description of the craft). So, once again, the LD should get a mass that is closer to that of the Fighter, but obviously a little bit less. However, neither craft should get a mass increase that makes them better than the /In, as the /In is supposed to be the newest and best of the 3.
Dev invented craft of Syck should see a mass increase as well.
Because it is a Dev invented craft, they know the best as to where it's mass should be (sorry privateers). But in all fairness, it really should get an increase. 12k mass makes it virtually useless to anyone other than a novice.
One thing that I noticed with the Dev's creation of all these ships for the game, they attempted to balance mass/manueverability/amongst other things in an attempt to make it so a tier 1 ship will still be useful even when your at master level. Only exceptions to that are with Imperials (as some of their craft truly are obsolete) and Privateers (as most of their craft are invented by the devs and therefore rest soly in their hands). However, they seemed to have forgotten about the novice ships. As it stands, all novice ships are useless after tier 1.
Q1. Concern: Increased mass on Z-95 may phase out higher level ships, such as the Y-Wings.
A1. Response: Possibly. It is really hard to tell for sure, but I would think that there would be at least some continued use of the fighters due to their heavier mass (for more/better systems) and because they naturally have a heavier payload capability. This would apply more so to higher level players, though, and not those grinding their way up.
Q2. Suggestion: Instead of increasing mass on the Novice Z-95 and Syck, just create a second, 'heavy' version of them.
A1. Response: This may be a better solution. Just consider the Novice versions as being stripped down ones (much like the Light Duty TIE) and then the 'heavier' ones (or standard versions) are put about where they should be.
Q3. Disagreement: Increasing mass of Z-95 to 80k is absurd.
A3. Response: And leaving a medium class ship at 12k (or even only increasing a little) is just as absurd.
Q4. Suggestion: Instead of increaing mass to novice ships, just change them to work similarly to droid modules, where you have the basic level 1 and as you get better you can aquire better versions of it. Have a minimum level to some ships, in relation to where they currently are in the skill boxes.
A4. Response: That could work, but I see more work involved in it to make sure that everything meshes together properly.
Message Edited by FuryoftheStars on 11-10-2004 01:56 PM
FuryoftheStars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:35 am
#2
/bump
I guess I posted at the wrong time.
Everyone is so wrapped up in the Kessel thing.
I guess I posted at the wrong time.
Everyone is so wrapped up in the Kessel thing.
FuryoftheStars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:30 am
#3
mclouj wrote:Hmmm I think you may have a point about the mass limitations for novice ships, however you're going to have a problem with increasing the z95 mass. If you have a ship that is heaps more manueverable than the Y-wing and can fit almost as many guns on it who would use a Y-wing? You'd obsolete a higher level ship as everyone would stay in their Z-95's. Still I agree with making low-level ships more feasible in higher level combat, even if they are still cannon fodder with no armour or shields
Maybe so, but I would think only up to a point as the Y-wing would still have more mass capabilities. But I'm not really sure on this one. Right now my standard Y-Wing has 50k mass worth of equipment (level 5 crafted along with level 1 & 2 exceptional loots) in it, but pretty soon here I should be able to start upgrading my systems. I'm not sure how much mass the new systems will take up, though. At the Least I can still see the Longprobe in use by soloists as it would have a heavier payload on it than the Z-95, but I think the only people that would use the standard are those who like to fly with a buddy (But this class of fighter is also supposed to be near obsolete itself, just like the standard TIE Fighter).
But all in all that is a good point. It's really hard to say for sure what would happen....
mclouj
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:22 pm
#5
Hmmm I think you may have a point about the mass limitations for novice ships, however you're going to have a problem with increasing the z95 mass. If you have a shipthat is heaps more manueverable than the Y-wing and can fit almost as many guns on it who would use a Y-wing? You'd obsolete a higher level ship as everyone would stay in their Z-95's. Still I agree with making low-level ships more feasible in higher level combat, even if they are still cannon fodder with no armour or shields
Iwami
Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:04 pm
#7
i would have to say the novice ships are fine as is, but they should add a schem for a higher laodout Z-95, Scyck, then having those have a higher mass would be great.
Iceman-KG-
Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:34 pm
#8
I agree, you could make a Z95 akin to the Tie/IN, but putting 80k mass on a novice ship is absurd. You can say what you will from the Star Wars database, but putting double the mass of my Tie Interceptor on a novice level ship will never happen.
HythosSWG
Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:44 pm
#9
Novice ships shouldn't be increased - however there should be "tiers" of ships ... and I'll relate this to droid components since they're virtually identical - unlike weapons and other aspects which require "certification" for use.....
- Level1 droidmodules are fairly basic - craft-able at Novice.
- Level2 droidmodules require a little more resources, but are more than double the effectiveness of a level1 module
- Level3 droid modules require a few specific resources, and incrase in potential yet again..
- Level4 - 6 - ect ect......
Since there's no visible difference between a lvl1 or lvl6 droid module, ships could be "tiered" as well- most having a minimum tier-value (following the certification that currently exists) - but implimenting variety to allow a "novice" craft to support equipment of a tier-4 ship (80kish)... After all, there ARE many Tier4+ Z95's and TIE's fly'n around out there.
FuryoftheStars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:25 pm
#10
Iwami wrote:i would have to say the novice ships are fine as is, but they should add a schem for a higher laodout Z-95, Scyck, then having those have a higher mass would be great.
That could work as well. In fact, I think that might actually work a little bit better. As the person before you pointed out, the higher level Z-95 available from Novice may make it so some people wouldn't want to fly the Y-Wings. Maybe they could do it where the higher level Z-95 is considered as the 'full' version, where as the novice level one is the stripped down one?
Message Edited by FuryoftheStars on 11-10-2004 01:26 PM
FuryoftheStars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:34 pm
#11
Iceman-KG- wrote:I agree, you could make a Z95 akin to the Tie/IN, but putting 80k mass on a novice ship is absurd. You can say what you will from the Star Wars database, but putting double the mass of my Tie Interceptor on a novice level ship will never happen.
80k mass is about where it should be. Novice skill cert aside, the Z-95 is supposed to be somewhere between the X-Wing and A-Wing for load-out capabilities. But only having 12k mass on a craft that is supposed to be capable of having a better armament than an A-Wing (at 65k mass) is just as absurd.
And why did you bring the Interceptor into this? It's not related to the Z-95 in any way (in this game). The Interceptor is a tier 3? craft, not novice, so how can you compare them for increasing mass? And besides that, I feel as though the Interceptor is right on where it's mass should be in relation to everything else... it could use another 5k absolute max, I would say.
Message Edited by FuryoftheStars on 11-10-2004 01:44 PM
FuryoftheStars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:36 pm
#12
HythosSWG wrote:Novice ships shouldn't be increased - however there should be "tiers" of ships ... and I'll relate this to droid components since they're virtually identical - unlike weapons and other aspects which require "certification" for use.....
- Level1 droid modules are fairly basic - craft-able at Novice.
- Level2 droid modules require a little more resources, but are more than double the effectiveness of a level1 module
- Level3 droid modules require a few specific resources, and incrase in potential yet again..
- Level4 - 6 - ect ect......
Since there's no visible difference between a lvl1 or lvl6 droid module, ships could be "tiered" as well - most having a minimum tier-value (following the certification that currently exists) - but implimenting variety to allow a "novice" craft to support equipment of a tier-4 ship (80kish)... After all, there ARE many Tier4+ Z95's and TIE's fly'n around out there.
That could work too, but I think it would require a larger overhaul to the system. (larger in relation to other solutions.) But actually, I think I like Iwami's suggestion better of making a second Z-95/Syck that is a heavier version and leave the actual novice versions alone.
Message Edited by FuryoftheStars on 11-10-2004 01:37 PM
Iceman-KG-
Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:54 pm
#13
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Iceman-KG- wrote:
I agree, you could make a Z95 akin to the Tie/IN, but putting 80k mass on a novice ship is absurd. You can say what you will from the Star Wars database, but putting double the mass of my Tie Interceptor on a novice level ship will never happen.
80k mass is about where it should be. Novice skill cert aside, the Z-95 is supposed to be somewhere between the X-Wing and A-Wing for load-out capabilities. But only having 12k mass on a craft that is supposed to be capable of having a better armament than an A-Wing (at 65k mass) is just as absurd.
And why did you bring the Interceptor into this? It's not related to the Z-95 in any way (in this game). The Interceptor is a tier 3? craft, not novice, so how can you compare them for increasing mass? And besides that, I feel as though the Interceptor is right on where it's mass should be in relation to everything else... it could use another 5k absolute max, I would say.
Message Edited by FuryoftheStars on 11-10-2004 01:44 PM
Fanboi trivia aside, you basically stated my point as you said I had no point. No novice ship should be better than a tier 3 or 4 one. A wing = tier 4, Z-95 = novice. If that math is too difficult, your education is obviously lacking.
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