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Thread: Why there's two completely different camps of thought between PvP and PvE
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sugaki
Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:20 am
#1
I've been following the progress of JTL for a long time, and was in the beta--and so i can make it quick for you knee-jerk 1-star'ers: I like PvP.
But that's aside from why I'm ticked about the change.
Pro-PvP folks didn't like the griefers and spawn killers either--and the issue was more of a flawed gameplay mechanic, or the game letting you spawn kill while you're loading, than PvP itself.
Let's face it, there's two diametrically opposed camps--the roleplayers, and those who want to log and kill some players (I'm the later). Roleplayers don't like other players (esp. immature ones) interrupting theirmeetings on their transports, or helping their guildmates, loot collecting, while PvPers expect the game to be more about free-for-all action.
So all these debates of whether or not changing Kessel was good or bad are completely pointless, cus' the PvE and PvPers view JTL from a completely different perspective.
However, it angers methat the Devs are backing away from what they originally touted the game as--it was frequently advertised as being an X-Wing Vs. TIE Fighter in a much bigger arena, withPvP playing a key role. Now it's pretty much like the ground game--entirely voluntary. I understand some like it that way, but it's frustrating when the devs were pitching how PvP was going to be an integral part of the game.
And it makes even less sense when you HAVE to be Overt to wear Storm Trooper Armor on the ground, yet you can be decked out in TIE Pilot gear (with the Imperial logo clearly visible), fly a TIE ship and be Covert. I meanat least for consistency's sakeStorm Trooper armor wearable for coverts too.
And for all those that opposed PvP for the sake of roleplaying--don't you think there's something very wrong with "roleplaying" a character when TIEs, X-Wings are all peacefully flying by each other, when they should ripping at each other's throats? That flies more in the face of the roleplaying experience than anything else for me.
spathotan
Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:23 am
#2
Wow that 1 star you were begging for hit fast. And no it wasnt me, cuz i dont even PVP, i despise it.
ShadowSaber5
Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:27 am
#3
well as for teh ties andn X-wing flying together...have you noticed some of the spawns? RSF ships sometimes are X-wings (RSF sides with the empire) as well as some hutts, so really the ship istelf doesn't designate faction....to a point.
but as a RP'er, PvE'er, AND a PvP'er i can play all sides. Hence i made this post:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=lightspeed&message.id=146464
But i think more or less people didn't like the idea of being forced to PvP for a mission that was only PvE. And the gankers didn't help at all. What i thinkn they ended up doing was TEMPORARILY making kessel PvE becuase it was probably the easiest to code. Once they rewrite or redo the code for a new system they will impliment it. But i agree with them that they had to do SOMETHING, because all the soon-to-be-masters had hit a wall with the PvP. And becuase with more and more people trying to do it, kessel was getting pretty ugly.
I agree with Kessel being a PvP zone to give the PvP community variety with where to PvP, but i don't agree that a PvE mission should be there. (this has nothing to do with difficulty, read my post)
but as a RP'er, PvE'er, AND a PvP'er i can play all sides. Hence i made this post:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=lightspeed&message.id=146464
But i think more or less people didn't like the idea of being forced to PvP for a mission that was only PvE. And the gankers didn't help at all. What i thinkn they ended up doing was TEMPORARILY making kessel PvE becuase it was probably the easiest to code. Once they rewrite or redo the code for a new system they will impliment it. But i agree with them that they had to do SOMETHING, because all the soon-to-be-masters had hit a wall with the PvP. And becuase with more and more people trying to do it, kessel was getting pretty ugly.
I agree with Kessel being a PvP zone to give the PvP community variety with where to PvP, but i don't agree that a PvE mission should be there. (this has nothing to do with difficulty, read my post)
Message Edited by ShadowSaber5 on 11-10-2004 11:29 PM
sugaki
Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:40 am
#4
I did read your post--and my point was (PvP being mandatory) shouldn've come as a shock because on more than one occassion the devs said it would be necessary for people to be involved in PvP to become a Master. It was a deliberate design decision--that indeed went awry with spawn killing and un-fun one hit kills from uber weapons. Still, a lot of people had expectations of PvP being just like the ground game when it was said early on that it wouldn't be.
I'd feel better if TH said something about bringing back Kessel as PvP, and that it's being addressed, but nothing like that'd been said--so it's safer to believe that Kessel will stay as is.
Stavro
Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:45 am
#5
I don't oppose PvP out of any roleplaying considerations. I think these games (MMOGs, note I do NOT call them MMORPGs) are about as RP as Diablo 2.
I oppose PvP in games like this because I think it's a joke compared to "real" PvP in a good shooter. I can load up Battlefield: 1942, Ghost Recon, Tribes 2, or any of a number of other good shooters and get hours of PvPing enjoyment with only people who are there to PvP.. not grind faction points or flamethrower 3 or get master pilot or whatever. I also think that PvP in this game is a haven for rejects who just like to annoy people.. sure, you get those types in a good shooter as well.. but they're not difficult to deal with. Furthermore, I oppose PvP in these games (unless it's very thoroughly isolated from the rest of the game, kinda like it was in Earth and Beyond) because it's possible for complaints about how something works in PvP to alter things in PvE, if changes are not implemented correctly.. and vice versa. (I believe we're seeing a bit of that right now)
I laugh at the PvP people who constantly call us PvE people names and generally try to insult us in any way possible, trying to insinuate we're not up to the challenge of PvP here or other such idiotic arguments.. because I think they're not up to the challenge of loading up a real PvP game and jumping in. I've developed this opinion, after starting out more or less indifferent on the subject, because of the rotten attitudes of the majority of PvPers here.
I think MOST PvPers in this game are more than a little arrogant, (I can tell you that, if many of these PvPers talked to me in real life the way they talk to me in this game, they'd be "escorted" off my property at gunpoint.. and there are no cloning center options for 8mm rifle rounds) and have great difficulty understanding that not everyone plays the game for the same reasons they do. I, on the other hand, (as an example of a PvEer) CAN understand their side of things.. I just don't agree with or support it for the reasons I stated above. I tell people, if they're dead-set on PvPing me, I'll be glad to reinstall BF'42 (corrupted install forced removal.. not lack of desire to play it) and meet them on a server so we can go at it. If the responses of people like myself also seem arrogant, it's because we're tired of being badgered and called names and looked down upon right off the bat.
I oppose PvP in games like this because I think it's a joke compared to "real" PvP in a good shooter. I can load up Battlefield: 1942, Ghost Recon, Tribes 2, or any of a number of other good shooters and get hours of PvPing enjoyment with only people who are there to PvP.. not grind faction points or flamethrower 3 or get master pilot or whatever. I also think that PvP in this game is a haven for rejects who just like to annoy people.. sure, you get those types in a good shooter as well.. but they're not difficult to deal with. Furthermore, I oppose PvP in these games (unless it's very thoroughly isolated from the rest of the game, kinda like it was in Earth and Beyond) because it's possible for complaints about how something works in PvP to alter things in PvE, if changes are not implemented correctly.. and vice versa. (I believe we're seeing a bit of that right now)
I laugh at the PvP people who constantly call us PvE people names and generally try to insult us in any way possible, trying to insinuate we're not up to the challenge of PvP here or other such idiotic arguments.. because I think they're not up to the challenge of loading up a real PvP game and jumping in. I've developed this opinion, after starting out more or less indifferent on the subject, because of the rotten attitudes of the majority of PvPers here.
I think MOST PvPers in this game are more than a little arrogant, (I can tell you that, if many of these PvPers talked to me in real life the way they talk to me in this game, they'd be "escorted" off my property at gunpoint.. and there are no cloning center options for 8mm rifle rounds) and have great difficulty understanding that not everyone plays the game for the same reasons they do. I, on the other hand, (as an example of a PvEer) CAN understand their side of things.. I just don't agree with or support it for the reasons I stated above. I tell people, if they're dead-set on PvPing me, I'll be glad to reinstall BF'42 (corrupted install forced removal.. not lack of desire to play it) and meet them on a server so we can go at it. If the responses of people like myself also seem arrogant, it's because we're tired of being badgered and called names and looked down upon right off the bat.
spathotan
Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:45 am
#6
But who is to blame for the one or two hit pvp kills? The devs for not implementing some kind of pvp damage reduction? Or SW for grinding the damn prof so fast that there is nothing but really powerful weapons out there, rendering pvp lame and pratically useless, to an extent.
sugaki
Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:02 pm
#7
"I think MOST PvPers in this game are more than a little arrogant"
I think people are immature on both sides of the spectrum--hence the constant pigeon-holing of those who like PvP as being 14 yrs olds who say "ur gay" every other sentence. Or an aura of pretention that those who enjoy RPGs are somehow inexplicably more deep and erudite, mediating on the profound things of life.
"I oppose PvP in games like this because I think it's a joke compared to "real" PvP in a good shooter. I can load up Battlefield: 1942, Ghost Recon, Tribes 2, or any of a number of other good shooters and get hours of PvPing enjoyment with only people who are there to PvP"
See this post precisely shows my contention--the problem is that the game _was_ supposed to be one of the "good shooters" to "get hours of PvPing enjoyment"--that's what it was marketed as and came straight from the words of SOE. Many people had those expectations, and it got flipped.
Message Edited by sugaki on 11-11-2004 12:05 AM
Stavro
Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:05 pm
#8
That's what you get for listening to SOE's claims. 
SOE will tell you whatever they think will get you to buy the expansion.
SOE will tell you whatever they think will get you to buy the expansion.
Trystim
Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:29 pm
#9
"I did read your post--and my point was (PvP being mandatory) shouldn've come as a shock because on more than one occassion the devs said it would be necessary for people to be involved in PvP to become a Master. It was a deliberate design decision--that indeed went awry with spawn killing and un-fun one hit kills from uber weapons. Still, a lot of people had expectations of PvP being just like the ground game when it was said early on that it wouldn't be.
I'd feel better if TH said something about bringing back Kessel as PvP, and that it's being addressed, but nothing like that'd been said--so it's safer to believe that Kessel will stay as is.
Ok, this is really beginning to get annoying. The Dev's have never stated that the pilot professions in JTL would require pvp. As a matter of fact,
they stated EXACTLY the opposite. They stated that PVP in JTL would be consentual even more so than the ground game; Example:
JTL doesn't not have 'Tef's like the ground game. I'm not sure where these 'free-for-all-pvp forced on everyone everywhere' delusions are
coming from but after looking back I cannot find one statement made by any dev to validate the claim of pilot requiring pvp. It isn't so. Your
lust for forced-pvp is so great that you cannot even see reality anymore. You have changed the issue of your complaints numerous times
and none of them have yet had any foundation for complaint. Your convictions are corrupt and I have a feeling there's a hidden agenda within
this massive smokescreen. That agenda being to force pvp on players that don't want to pvp. In past events that have transpired, YOU
as pvp'ers have ruined pvp in the ground game. With clone camping, grieving, harassment, and just plain being mean, YOU yourselves
drove the other pvper's away and now you claim there's no pvp on the ground. Enter JTL and the infamous Kessel. You were then given
the ability to grieve every player that went for master pilot and then throw out the smokescreen of 'roleplaying', 'making master pilot rare', or
'making master pilot a challange' Again, another delusion. The dev's never stated that Master pilots would be rare and as a matter of fact
the coding other than the kessel area reflects that. They made pilot a BASIC profession and also gave players starter ships to get them
right into space once JTL launched. They have said Jedi should be rare. Pilots aren't Jedi. They're pilots. One of the main things to understand
here is that ONLY master pilots are certified for the Multiplayer ships other than the 'bare-bones' veteran reward. If in fact you have your
way and Pilot can only be mastered through an area where PVP is going to take place, then PVE roleplayers who DON'T want to pvp
will not have access to content that would help continue their enjoyment of the game. The amusing part of this is that there is several
posts on here where PVP'ers have stated that Mulitplayer ships are terrible in pvp. Ironic isn't it? The main point behind all this is that
you want to be able to attack anyone, anywhere, anytime. Not roleplay, not kessel, not master pilots. The smokescreen is thick.
What you all have to understand and write down if you have to, is that in this game, you cannot have it this way. This game is still set up
in such a way to accomodate both types of playing styles. Both can co-exist. Non-Pvper's don't want to pvp regardless of how fun
you feel it is. Pvper's want to pvp no matter how much PVE'er's say it's not roleplaying. The mechanics or the game within kessel
was a MISTAKE where PVE'ers were being forced into pvp and that wasn't supposed to be the case. Instantly the grievers starting
their L.A. gang like tactics and made kessel their own 'turf'. With the new change kessel becomes an area where both PVE'ers and
PVP'ers can play. (PVE'er's can do their mission without being forced to pvp and PVP'ers can declare overt and PVP) If the issue is about
being fair, then the change is in fact, fair. If the issue is about you as PVP'ers wanting to force your playing style onto others, or you
grievers wanting to continue your terrorist like game behavior, then I'm sure you can always find another game like counterstrike
that would suit your desires more efficiently.
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