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Thread: concerns about PvP dmg reduction
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Zilod
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:16 am
#1
forthe next publish patch notes reports
Profession: Pilot
- Lowered space PVP damage 25%
PVP DMG REDUCTION
now i'm all against 1 hit kill as now, but i think that this will lead to many more problems that it should resolve.
actually we are separating PvE and PvP games in space as it happens on the ground.
The cons to have 2 different systems in place are the difficulty to balance them, as happened on the ground is really easy to introduce new umbalancing factors (as new items) or underestimate some aspect of the game and to degenerate slowly to a situation similar to the ground one.
an aspect underestimated can be about ships with low mass, they are alredy nearly useless, and this change will impat them more than high mass ships... they can mount less powerfull weapons and shields than bigger ones and probably they will still be subjected to 1hit kill, a similar fate is for multiperson ship, with just 1 turret shoting and enemies with 2,3,4 guns...
I also think that this change will simply make PvPers switch to missiles, torpedoes IV and space bombs, will be probably still be 1hit killers, even with the 25% dmg reduction, we know how overpowered they where in beta, and in my opinion the only reason that they are not very used in PvP is just because lasers are as effective as them and with lower cost.
A BALANCED GAME
In my opinion the game should be balanced making stats of PC and NPC ships similar, we are not on the ground and there is no reason in having NPC ships with 10k shields while PCs have max 2.5k.
I consider the PvE game quite balanced, the damage against NPC and the one we suffer from them is good in my opinion...
Actual damage balance
PC -> PC=bad (1 hit shot)
PC -> NPC = good
NPC -> PC = good
NPC -> NPC = bad (too low damage, kessel battles between npcs and endless and they can beused as tanks)
this is because NPC shields are uber compared to PC ones, and NPC weapons are laughtable
so instead of introducing artificial measures to make the game feel balanced, modify the stats of pc weapons and npc shields, so that in all scenarions the damage ration is balanced.
IDEASTO BALANCE
IMO there are3 ways to balance the combat, from my fav to the least fav.
1) total rebalance
rebalance all player weapons lowering the damage differences between various levels, so that low level weapons will still have a damage similar to current one, but high level one will have way lower dmg. In my opinion in a twich game like this to have a weapon that can do 10x dmg than another is a bit excessive, a 3x dmg ration will probably be better. Then rebalance NPCs shields to fit the player stats.
2) NPC/PC rebalance
give to pc weapons the same stats of correspondant tier npc ships (tier5 weapon that do same dmg as tier5 npc x-wing for example), give to npcs ships same stats of pc shields (tier5 x-wing with same shield as tier5 pc shield)
(or opposite if easyer)
3) 25% dmg reduction
reduce player weapon dmg by 75% and reduce NPC shields by 75%, this way we will have a situation similar to the 25% dmg reduction, but whitout having the future balance problems that could happen.
When a new weapon/shield/ship will be introduced if it will be balanced in PvE it will also be in PvP.
OTHER PROBLEMS
i think that these solution can make the game much more balanced, but we must also don't forget other problems, like MISSILES, as said now not very popular, andMASS of some ships, that make them simply useless.
these problems should be addressed in every case, and not thing that they will be ok just introducing a 25% dmg pvp reduction
forgot....
sorry for crappy english 
Message Edited by Zilod on 11-12-2004 07:17 PM
Zilod
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:22 am
#2
forthe next publish patch notes reports
Profession: Pilot
- Lowered space PVP damage 25%
PVP DMG REDUCTION
now i'm all against 1 hit kill as now, but i think that this will lead to many more problems that it should resolve.
actually we are separating PvE and PvP games in space as it happens on the ground.
The cons to have 2 different systems in place are the difficulty to balance them, as happened on the ground is really easy to introduce new umbalancing factors (as new items) or underestimate some aspect of the game and to degenerate slowly to a situation similar to the ground one.
an aspect underestimated can be about ships with low mass, they are alredy nearly useless, and this change will impat them more than high mass ships... they can mount less powerfull weapons and shields than bigger ones and probably they will still be subjected to 1hit kill, a similar fate is for multiperson ship, with just 1 turret shoting and enemies with 2,3,4 guns...
I also think that this change will simply make PvPers switch to missiles, torpedoes IV and space bombs, will be probably still be 1hit killers, even with the 25% dmg reduction, we know how overpowered they where in beta, and in my opinion the only reason that they are not very used in PvP is just because lasers are as effective as them and with lower cost.
A BALANCED GAME
In my opinion the game should be balanced making stats of PC and NPC ships similar, we are not on the ground and there is no reason in having NPC ships with 10k shields while PCs have max 2.5k.
I consider the PvE game quite balanced, the damage against NPC and the one we suffer from them is good in my opinion...
Actual damage balance
PC -> PC=bad (1 hit shot)
PC -> NPC = good
NPC -> PC = good
NPC -> NPC = bad (too low damage, kessel battles between npcs and endless and they can beused as tanks)
this is because NPC shields are uber compared to PC ones, and NPC weapons are laughtable
so instead of introducing artificial measures to make the game feel balanced, modify the stats of pc weapons and npc shields, so that in all scenarions the damage ration is balanced.
IDEASTO BALANCE
IMO there are3 ways to balance the combat, from my fav to the least fav.
1) total rebalance
rebalance all player weapons lowering the damage differences between various levels, so that low level weapons will still have a damage similar to current one, but high level one will have way lower dmg. In my opinion in a twich game like this to have a weapon that can do 10x dmg than another is a bit excessive, a 3x dmg ration will probably be better. Then rebalance NPCs shields to fit the player stats.
2) NPC/PC rebalance
give to pc weapons the same stats of correspondant tier npc ships (tier5 weapon that do same dmg as tier5 npc x-wing for example), give to npcs ships same stats of pc shields (tier5 x-wing with same shield as tier5 pc shield)
(or opposite if easyer)
3) 25% dmg reduction
reduce player weapon dmg by 75% and reduce NPC shields by 75%, this way we will have a situation similar to the 25% dmg reduction, but whitout having the future balance problems that could happen.
When a new weapon/shield/ship will be introduced if it will be balanced in PvE it will also be in PvP.
OTHER PROBLEMS
i think that these solution can make the game much more balanced, but we must also don't forget other problems, like MISSILES, as said now not very popular, andMASS of some ships, that make them simply useless.
these problems should be addressed in every case, and not thing that they will be ok just introducing a 25% dmg pvp reduction
forgot....
sorry for crappy english
Zutono
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:30 am
#3
What this would do, in essence, is make everyone the same. No bonuses for having looted something cool, or having RE'd some uber weapon to use in your ship. No point in becomeing an Ace pilot since a noob would be able to take on an Ace who had worked and earned his status. JTL is NOT a seperate game...it's an expansion of SWG...and as such, there must be an interaction with the RPG aspects of the ground game.
This is not derogatory against your opinion, simply stating facts. Yes...the one-shot kills are rediculous...but reducing master weapons down to noob-ness is a little extreme.
IonControl
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:38 am
#4
Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but it sounds like you spent a great deal of time talking about NPC damage. Of course the 25% reduction will not apply in that arena.
Personally, I think 25% PvP dmg reduction is a bit low. I haven't spent much time PvPing yet, but I think a 50% modifier would be even better. I would honestly like to see dogfights taking longer. Now, perhaps I underestimate the PC "AI" and just getting in 2-3 shots is a feat, but it seems to me that I should have to work a bit harder to get the kill. My opponent should have more than 1 second to realize I'm on his tail. Weapons refire rates can be so fast that I can almost score 3 solid hits in the time it takes you to "juke" once. Personally, I'd like to see it take 5-6, maybe 7hits to win. It should take me3-4 seconds to destroy you if I'm behind and you don't move. If I have a friend, it should take 2 full seconds for us to destroy you if we team up. I think this would make PvP far more interesting since I would have a chance to take you on if you attacked. The current system rewards the first shot for the most part and dogfighting takes a back seat.
As for missles, the NPCs don't seem to use chaff, so I think that will level the playing field. Chaff seems to be unusually effective (it distracts the NPC missle 95% of the time), so I think they will counterbalance each other in the PvP game.
Just my $.02 worth 
Zilod
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:43 am
#5
in space as twich game should be the skill of the player and not necessary his equipment to make the difference.
if will be the equipement the main factor you will end having all players flying the FOTM ship regardless of roles and flight differences.
an A-wing who is tier4 will never be able to fit a tier10 60k weapon or shield.
also even now the uber lot is not just the highest lv one, a lv1 capacitator with 38 recharging rate is much more worth than a lv10 with 45 rate.
anyway the option to lower the high tier weapon is just the first one (my fav ) the other 2 will change nothing about that, the lv10 weapon will still do 10x dmg than the lv1 one case both will suffer the reduction, or if you prefer there is also the option to boost shields and npc weapons whitout touching player weapon dmg.
) the other 2 will change nothing about that, the lv10 weapon will still do 10x dmg than the lv1 one case both will suffer the reduction, or if you prefer there is also the option to boost shields and npc weapons whitout touching player weapon dmg.
Lilleth
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:45 am
#6
To come back to the "ace"-topic:
I cant remember an ace of the WWII with other equipment than any pilot starting on his first mission.
Ace is skill (and luck of course - every veteran said it) - not equipment.
Zilod
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:55 am
#7
of course the dmg reduction will only be PvP
i spoke a lot about NPC dmg because that damage in my opinion is balanced against players, and i don't see why we should introduce an artificial dmg reduction instead of make it that blayers and npcs will have the same damage and shield potential.
when i started to play swg, PvP on the ground was 1 shot kill
people where not happy (with reason) and the dmg reduction was introduced
the people wanted to be able to be more effective (again with reason) against npcs whitout be forced to use pets to tank, and better armors and defence skill where introduced.
now we are at the point that whitout the uber stun/ap25/dot weapon you are almost useless in pvp.
this is just an example on how 2 different damage systems for PvP and PvE could make the game more and more umbalanced as time pass, maybe now the 25% dmg reduction in space will work well, and will do it's job for months, but at every innovation introduced in the game there will be an high risk to make PvP and PvE more and more different slowly introducing umbalances difficult to recover from.
Is for these reason that i will like to keep PvE and PvP as similar as possible.
JustinHarrell
Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:02 pm
#8
I agree 100%, the devs seem to make the most amaturish mistakes with balance and 25% magic reduction is one of them.
Look at the the situation, they make NPC's have more shields and armor than PC so PC weapons have to do alot of dmg to make a dent, yet this amount of dmg kills other PC's in one shot. What the most logical solution, use the existing combat code and tweak the numbers so NPC armor shields are closer to PC and lower weapon dmg? No instead introduce a new "magic" modifier the must be wedged in the combat code and taken into account in all forms of combat dmg eating up more cpu cycles in the process.
UNBELIEVABLE.
Then what should we expect, they did it in the ground game and look at the balance we have there, dont you just love cave men wearing no armor having crazy HAM to account for weapon dmg and lack of AI.
See there is a thing called suspension of disbelief that the devs don't seem to grasp. Not only will this cause balance issues, it also give bad "feel" tothe game when your fighting something that has artificially high shields or on HAM on the ground. How many posts can you find where people ask why an NPC wearing no armor has 90% resist to everything and 10x the HAM of a PC, now in space your seeing why does a NPC Awing have 10k shields, my Awing cant? It makes the game feel artifical besides how hard it is to balance two combat systems instead of one(PVE and PVP).
Justin
Kalaf
Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:35 pm
#13
I actually agree <sort of>...
The thing that I find starnge is that anyone thinks the damage that NPCs can take is reasonable. I've seen the movies I read a LOT of teh books. Space combat is supposed to be nasty , brutal and end suddenly. Sure 1 hit kills would not be the norm. But 2-4 hit kills would be. These fighters are Small. As an example. a gunboat currently can be killed in about 15-20 hits(with Teir 4 stuff)if you can get them all in the same shield and not get killed by him in return. Why should a ship that is 1/10 the mass (or less) of that gunboat have a chance of surviving even 1/2 that many hits?
Kalaf
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