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Thread: DEVS turning Kessel into a PvE zone is overkill. Please read for an alternate solution.
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Zade_Taerin
Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:53 am
#2
If PvP deaths were treated the same as factional ground deaths (i.e. No decay on a faction death) then people would be less hesitant to risk their rare and valued components. If "No decay on PvP Death" was implemented I'd be all for it and less hesitant to engage another player... as a casual player I don't have a ton of credits to be purchasing the best nor do I have the time to endlessly kill for the purpose of getting the next uber component loot.
truewildman
Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:54 am
#3
/agree.
Many are saying, "What's the big deal? Declare and go to Kessel!"
One problem with that: What about us neutrals who wish to remain neutral and like the RP aspect of being able to attack and be attackable by both sides?
Now, as a pre-master, if I want to PvP, I can't. All factional space stations tell me "Pick a side before you talk to me again". There is no neutral declaration.
I cannot PvP in space at all now. Period. I've never PvP'd before, but was really wanting to give it a try.
One problem with that: What about us neutrals who wish to remain neutral and like the RP aspect of being able to attack and be attackable by both sides?
Now, as a pre-master, if I want to PvP, I can't. All factional space stations tell me "Pick a side before you talk to me again". There is no neutral declaration.
I cannot PvP in space at all now. Period. I've never PvP'd before, but was really wanting to give it a try.
Maulibaer
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:08 am
#4
A very good thread.
It was the right choice to calm down first and think.
I /agree full with your Idea!
And the I like the Idea of the SPECIAL BADGE too!
I miss badges in space anyway.....
Hope they will install some in the future.....
Message Edited by Maulibaer on 11-10-2004 04:08 PM
Vechaljian
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:13 am
#5
truewildman wrote:/agree.Many are saying, "What's the big deal? Declare and go to Kessel!"
One problem with that: What about us neutrals who wish to remain neutral and like the RP aspect of being able to attack and be attackable by both sides?
Now, as a pre-master, if I want to PvP, I can't. All factional space stations tell me "Pick a side before you talk to me again". There is no neutral declaration.
I cannot PvP in space at all now. Period. I've never PvP'd before, but was really wanting to give it a try.
I will be in that same Boat, I am Tatooine Privteer, now I loose The Means to even attempt Open Pvp, so I agree with the way around this master mission Issue.
DaveG
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:20 am
#6
How come the devs didnt' take the simplest solution?
That being take the master mission into an existing PvE sector and leave the PvP zones as they were otherwise.
ScReemB
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:22 am
#7
We raised this in beta a few times asking them to move it and it was never done now we are seeing the consequences of it being left where it is.
SCM T'R
truewildman
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:23 am
#8
ScReemB wrote:
We raised this in beta a few times asking them to move it and it was never done now we are seeing the consequences of it being left where it is.
SCM T'R
Do you remember what their reason for leaving it was? Please state it here.
ScReemB
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:26 am
#9
truewildman wrote:
ScReemB wrote:
We raised this in beta a few times asking them to move it and it was never done now we are seeing the consequences of it being left where it is.
SCM T'R
Do you remember what their reason for leaving it was? Please state it here.
I don't think we ever did get a reply to why it was left/couldn't be moved from there by the devs.
SCM T'R
Optathlete
Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:17 am
#10
truewildman wrote:
/agree.
Many are saying, "What's the big deal? Declare and go to Kessel!"
One problem with that: What about us neutrals who wish to remain neutral and like the RP aspect of being able to attack and be attackable by both sides?
Now, as a pre-master, if I want to PvP, I can't. All factional space stations tell me "Pick a side before you talk to me again". There is no neutral declaration.
I cannot PvP in space at all now. Period. I've never PvP'd before, but was really wanting to give it a try.
I hadn't even thought of that, but that's a VERY good point too. Neutral players are certainly getting the shaft. What's the deal, devs?
JonnyBravo
Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:18 pm
#11
I'm glad you took the time to think out your argument. It is very well laid out. I like your proposal to offer the Master certification in one of two ways, thus keeping both camps happy. Perhaps in addition to, or instead of a badge, the pilot that earned his certificate in the Kessel system could have some ship art, or a uniform medal, or a different uniform altogether to distinguish him as a pilot that obtained mastership through player interaction.
You also touched upon what I, and others, feel is the greatest drawback to the Kessel system being a free for all: the spawn campers. I have absolutely no problem with a system being populated by both PCs and NPCs. As I mentioned in another post, if it's red, it's dead. My problem is that because there is a single point of entry, that point is camped by folks looking to gain the advantage over others. It is a simple fact of gaming. People will use whatever means at their disposal to gain the advantage. However, because of the load times, and single point of entry into the Kessel system, players can be obliterated before they are even able to control their ships.
Ideally, the point of entry would be chosen by the player. Based on a map of the system, the player would choose the waypoint to jump into. This would greatly reduce the possibility of a player being destroyed on entry into the system. The flip side to this is the location of the mission objectives. The location of the objectives would have to be significantly randomized such that the spawn campers would not be able to shift to become objective campers.
Root out the cause of the problem and deal with it. Don't just put a band-aid on the symptoms and hope it goes away.
You also touched upon what I, and others, feel is the greatest drawback to the Kessel system being a free for all: the spawn campers. I have absolutely no problem with a system being populated by both PCs and NPCs. As I mentioned in another post, if it's red, it's dead. My problem is that because there is a single point of entry, that point is camped by folks looking to gain the advantage over others. It is a simple fact of gaming. People will use whatever means at their disposal to gain the advantage. However, because of the load times, and single point of entry into the Kessel system, players can be obliterated before they are even able to control their ships.
Ideally, the point of entry would be chosen by the player. Based on a map of the system, the player would choose the waypoint to jump into. This would greatly reduce the possibility of a player being destroyed on entry into the system. The flip side to this is the location of the mission objectives. The location of the objectives would have to be significantly randomized such that the spawn campers would not be able to shift to become objective campers.
Root out the cause of the problem and deal with it. Don't just put a band-aid on the symptoms and hope it goes away.
Optathlete
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:37 pm
#12
When I first heard about the changes to Kessel due to enter the game next Tuesday, I was pretty upset, so I held off on posting my thoughts to ensure I would make a somewhat coherent, constructive post, rather than simply end up ranting about how the devs have begun to ruin JTL.
The simple fact is, turning Kessel into a PvE zone is a serious mistake. One of the key factors in any MMORPG is risk vs. reward. Kessel contains the highest-level NPC ships with the best loot, but to an average-skill or higher pilot, there's very little risk involved. The NPC pilots do not pose any serious threat to the player - the only real risk is the Corvette fleet and other players. Removing other players from the equation will be a serious shift in the balance of power. Suddenly there's a great deal of reward for a trivial amount of risk.
Due to the way AI in space combat games work, there's very little the devs can do to make Kessel more challenging from an NPC perspective. In any game,players will always find a way to beat the - this fact is even morein a twitch-based game then in a pseudo-turn-based enviornment such as ground combat. Short of having the AI missile-spam other players, or overwhelming players with sheer numbers,Kessel cannot become much more risky from an NPC perspective.
Enter the enemy player. The true risk-element in Kessel. They provide a challenge that no computer AI will ever match. While it is very true that the current system leaves much to be desired (1-2 hit kill PvP and spawn camping come immediately to mind), the concept of an open-PvP arena with high-reward potential is a great one. To get the best possible components for your ship should require an actual risk. I'm not saying they should be significantly better than loot you would find elsewhere, but the very-top-of-the-line items should be in open-PvP areas only, as it is now. After all, the only players who really need the very-best equipment will be the PvPers - the AI poses little-enough risk that very-close-second components would easily be enough. And if it's not, they can always purchase the components from the PvP player. Problem solved. Even if you do not have the best items exist only in these areas, you can at least have higher-quality components drop more often in PvP enabled zones than elsewhere.
You'll notice I've yet to address the issue of the Master mission being in Kessel, thus forcing other players into an open-PvP zone in order to train the Master box. This is a mistake, as I do not feel any player should have PvP forced on them simply to reach the highest-level in a skill. Here is the general situation I envision:
- Two ways to train the Master box. You can either go to Kessel and risk facing other players in combat in order to destroy the Corvette, as it is now. I believe you should also get some sort of badge for destroying the Corvette, as at least a minor distinguishing attribute for having braved Kessel. Or, you can get the 7.5 million experience from NPCs and train the box without ever doing the Corvette mission, circumventing any sort of forced-PvP.
- Kessel remains an open PvP area, with fixes to certain issues such as spawn camping and 1-2 hit kills. NPCs in Kessel will have a very small chance of dropping components that are slightly better than those you can find in non-PvP enabled zones, or, at least, have more of a chance of dropping the best components. (not sure if this is true now)
- Reduce or remove decay from dying in PvP. This is a big one. Once you've reached Master, one of the few things you can do is fight other players - do not discourage this acitivity by enforcing a large decay penalty on death.
I believe this solves all the current problems, keeping both PvP players and PvE players content, if not entirely happy with the solution. It's all about compromise. The current situation is bad, yes, but turning Kessel into a PvE zone to fix the bad situation is just the opposite extreme. It's still a bad solution; it's just a bad solution that happens to make more people happy. As it is now, you will be significantly reducing the risk without modifying the reward, which is a large mistake to make. In the end, the only thing that can really threaten another player, short of NPC AI outright cheating, is another player. This truth must be factored in.
Please, devs, I ask you to reconsider your current plan. My solution is easy enough to implement, and will make sure both sides are happy. Do not fix one problem by creating another. Kessel currently provides a great addition to JTL - a no-man's land where the rules are tossed aside and it's every faction for themselves. The mistake was in forcing people to come here to Master the Pilot profession - not in the existance of Kessel as a PvP zone.
I implore you devs, please do not go down this path.
- Silellak, Imperial Pilot Ace - Black Epsilon Squadron
Message Edited by Optathlete on 11-10-2004 12:40 AM
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