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Thread: Kessel is just a symptom of the developers pov on PvP.
- A purpose
In every other aspect of the game classes andcommunities aredependent on each other for comodities and support - in other words interdependency. Every single community except one - PvP'ers. We take but at no point can we ever give back to the community. For one brief moment PvP'ers finally became part of the larger community - they we're needed -before you shelved them again.
Let me explain to you want the PvP community does not want:
- To have to search endlessly for PvP that has no meaning.
- To have pointless base wars (aka deepspace)
PvP has always been optional in SWG and its like that for a reason, some people don't enjoy it. I am not actually one of those people, but I can see both sides of this argument very clearly. Gank squads of PvP'ers griefing people that want to master their pilot profession is neither fun for all or helpful for the game, why on earth should your force people into doing something that they don't want to do.
All this does is create an elitist segment of the game that makes it harder and harder for anyone else to get to your level and compete on an even playing field. Hell I'm all for PvP only zones ... I just don't think that the master mission should be in one.
M3t4tr0N wrote:
Is the purpose of PvP not to fight and win against the other side ?
PvP has always been optional in SWG and its like that for a reason, some people don't enjoy it. I am not actually one of those people, but I can see both sides of this argument very clearly. Gank squads of PvP'ers griefing people that want to master their pilot profession is neither fun for all or helpful for the game, why on earth should your force people into doing something that they don't want to do.
All this does is create an elitist segment of the game that makes it harder and harder for anyone else to get to your level and compete on an even playing field. Hell I'm all for PvP only zones ... I just don't think that the master mission should be in one.
I already said making the master mission the pointof PvP was a bad idea.
The point I was making was that what it did do was provide the PvP community with something they have been asking for forever - a purpose. PvE'ers would need experienced PvP'ers to complete thier Master boxand that meantPvP'ers could finally give something back to the community.
PvP only zones with no purpose or effect on the game at large are a symtom of the larger problem on the way the developers and certain segments of players view PvP.
Of course PvP should be optional but that doesn't mean it should be useless and cut off from the rest of the game as it is now. The problem is that without PvP having an effect on anyone else other than PvP'ers is that we remain sidelined from the rest of the game and this divide between PvE'ers and PvP'ers will always remain.
(Btw I don't think PvP should have better rewards just different rewards but rewards that cannot be gain through PvE hence creating ourselves a niche in the "market").
Please let meinsert some comments into your post.
DND_Cas wrote:
Correct - you can still play PvP in the zone. Just hit a Faction Space Station and declare...
You don't understand what you did with the Master Mission with Kessel do you TH?
For the first time in this game you gave PvP a purpose.
Instead of going to a random place just to look for a fight we had a reason to want to fight in Kessel. Some people wanted to get thier master pilot certifications and the opposition wanted to stop that from happening. The one thing that is sorely missing from the ground game, and thatthe PvP comminityhas been complaining about for months and months and months, youhad in space and have taken away. (Now making the Master Level cert the thing to fight over was never smart but it was at least (finally) a reason to fight).
It occurs to me that you, personally,don't understand PvP at all because if you did you never would have written such auninformed answer about the needs and wants of your PvP community.
Let me explain to you want the PvP community wants:
- A purpose
In every other aspect of the game classes andcommunities aredependent on each other for comodities and support - in other words interdependency. Every single community except one - PvP'ers. We take but at no point can we ever give back to the community.What do you give back to the community? A missile? I actually don't want that given back from you.For one brief moment PvP'ers finally became part of the larger community - they we're needed -before you shelved them again.
Why do you think thatPvP was/is needed? I personally don't need it a single second.
Let me explain to you want the PvP community does not want:
- To have to search endlessly for PvP that has no meaning.
What meaning has it for you to 1 shot someone that only wants to finish that mission?
- To have pointless base wars (aka deepspace)
In other words we don't want to hang around starports or oppositely aligned space stations waiting for other PvP'ers to turn up and have a 2 minuite lightfight with them.No actuallyyou say you want to hang around and jump players that don't want to be jumped byyou. And this is not even a 2 minute lightfight it is a 10 secondsI pwned you fun. We would prefer to hang around bases that PvE'ers and crafters wanted protected or fighting opposite faction ships for commodities for our crafters.
If you think things like deepspace make PvP then you are very mistaken. Its the whole "you sunk my battleship" syndrome - i.e. no-one cares. We've nothing invested in it and it'll respawn the next day anyway.
In other words what PvP'ers do not want is to be seperate from the rest of the game whilst PvP'ing. By being PvP'er YOU decide to separate you from the majority of the community. Until we are a needed commodity we are simply gankers to most hardcore PvE'ers - this is not what we want. When other players need PvP'ers we cease to become simply gankers and starport loiterers and start to become people they want to know and people they need for certain things.
To conclude - please stop seperating PvP from the rest of the game and playstyles. If you want true interdepency in SWG you will give PvP'ers a purpose.
Not sure if you realize that not the devs separate the community. It is the 2 different playstyles that separates the community. Andyou try to force your playstyle onto the rest of the community. And if you read your own words "In other words we don't want to hang around starports or oppositely aligned space stations waiting for other PvP'ers to turn up and have a 2 minuite lightfight with them." then you clearly see that YOU are the minority.
DND_Cas wrote:I already said making the master mission the point of PvP was a bad idea.
The point I was making was that what it did do was provide the PvP community with something they have been asking for forever - a purpose. PvE'ers would need experienced PvP'ers to complete thier Master box and that meant PvP'ers could finally give something back to the community.
PvP only zones with no purpose or effect on the game at large are a symtom of the larger problem on the way the developers and certain segments of players view PvP.
Of course PvP should be optional but that doesn't mean it should be useless and cut off from the rest of the game as it is now. The problem is that without PvP having an effect on anyone else other than PvP'ers is that we remain sidelined from the rest of the game and this divide between PvE'ers and PvP'ers will always remain.
(Btw I don't think PvP should have better rewards just different rewards but rewards that cannot be gain through PvE hence creating ourselves a niche in the "market").
See, the way I see it is that the problem with PvP is the uber template flavour of the month syndrome. More people don't PvP because unless they have the uber foods, uber buffs, uber armor, uber mind fire weapons and the like they just cannot stand a chance of competing and this is something I am seriously hoping the combat revamp will sort out. I would love to see more PvP personally, I just don't think that the master mission is the way to do it.
PvP will always be about PvP, thats what it stands for, its all about player(s) fighting player(s) and the barrier to making this wider is the fact that nobody (or hardly anyone) does it unless they are at the very top of the game. This barrier to entry is the thing that really needs addressing, rather than forced PvP IMHO.
DND_Cas wrote:I don't want to gank you. I don't even want the master mission to be in Kessel. The point, the only point, I was trying to make here was that the Master mission in Kessel gave PvP'ers a purpose finally. They could protect you on the Master mission.This quote is an example of how you misread my post:"What do you give back to the community? A missile? I actually don't want that given back from you"Thats the point!!As a pvp'er I can't give anything back to you except something destructive. I would like something constructive to give back to the pve community but as it stands I can't because the games rules won't allow me to.
And in many respects here I do agree with you. My only issue is with the master mission requiring forced PvP, and I acknowledge that you also don't see this as one of the best ideas. What I would love to see (like you) is much more constructive discussion about how to improve PvP and for us to look at the real issues with it as opposed to the red herrings (such as the master mission).
M3t4tr0N wrote:
See, the way I see it is that the problem with PvP is the uber template flavour of the month syndrome. More people don't PvP because unless they have the uber foods, uber buffs, uber armor, uber mind fire weapons and the like they just cannot stand a chance of competing and this is something I am seriously hoping the combat revamp will sort out. I would love to see more PvP personally, I just don't think that the master mission is the way to do it.
PvP will always be about PvP, thats what it stands for, its all about player(s) fighting player(s) and the barrier to making this wider is the fact that nobody (or hardly anyone) does it unless they are at the very top of the game. This barrier to entry is the thing that really needs addressing, rather than forced PvP IMHO.
I don't want to force PvP on anyone. Where did I state that? Please show me so I can correct it immediately.
What I do want is for PvP'ers to be useful to PvE players. Thats all.
And that doesn't mean escorting players through PvP zones. It could be types of loot or resources that can only be got in a PvP zone - that PvE players need PvP players to go and get. You need to have a scout to go and collect bone and hide why not have to have a PvP'er to collect special spice components that can only be found in Kessel?
Message Edited by DND_Cas on 11-10-2004 11:07 AM
DND_Cas wrote:
Eldana,
Did you actually read what I posted or did you come into this thread with the old "lets have a pvp vs pve thread flamewar"?
I don't want to gank you. I don't even want the master mission to be in Kessel. The point, the only point, I was trying to make here was that the Master mission in Kessel gave PvP'ers a purpose finally. They could protect you on the Master mission.
This quote is an example of how you misread my post:
"What do you give back to the community? A missile? I actually don't want that given back from you"
Thats the point!!
As a pvp'er I can't give anything back to you except something destructive. I would like something constructive to give back to the pve community but as it stands I can'tbecause the games rules won't allow me to.
No I actually don't come in here for a flamewar.
And to tell you something. I'm not a 100% PvE. I also do PvP.
But here comes the point: I PvP at times I want to.
And Kessel was not that way. Actually in all the threads I saw,almost no one asked for PvP being removed from there.
But the dilemma with PvP is: How do you want to give something constructive to the PvE Communitiy without giving them something destructive?
I only would need your help if some other PvP'er tries to shoot me into hell. And here we are at the destructive point. And actually I don't like to get something destructive to get something constructive from you.Cause at exact this moment when I do somethingimportant someone decides to blow me up and you are not around. See the problem??
Message Edited by Eldana on 11-10-2004 03:11 AM
DND_Cas wrote:I don't want to force PvP on anyone. Where did I state that? Please show me so I can correct it immediately.
What I do want is for PvP'ers to be useful to PvE players. Thats all.
And that doesn't mean escorting players through PvP zones. It could be types of loot or resources that can only be got in a PvP zone - that PvE players need PvP players to go and get. You need to have a scout to go and collect bone and hide why not have to have a PvP'er to collect special spice components that can only be found in Kessel?
So to
Now come on ... where did I say that you said you wanted to force PvP on people. Read that post and subsequent posts. I am just expressing my opinion on the issues around PvP; putting the master mission in Kessel forcing PvP is what I was talking about. The whole master mission in kessel issue seems to be clouding what are the central problems with PvP and it is those I was discussing. I actually see your point of view here, but the Kessel mission is a red herring.
Message Edited by M3t4tr0N on 11-10-2004 11:12 AM
DND_Cas wrote:
M3t4tr0N wrote:
See, the way I see it is that the problem with PvP is the uber template flavour of the month syndrome. More people don't PvP because unless they have the uber foods, uber buffs, uber armor, uber mind fire weapons and the like they just cannot stand a chance of competing and this is something I am seriously hoping the combat revamp will sort out. I would love to see more PvP personally, I just don't think that the master mission is the way to do it.
PvP will always be about PvP, thats what it stands for, its all about player(s) fighting player(s) and the barrier to making this wider is the fact that nobody (or hardly anyone) does it unless they are at the very top of the game. This barrier to entry is the thing that really needs addressing, rather than forced PvP IMHO.
I don't want to force PvP on anyone. Where did I state that? Please show me so I can correct it immediately.
What I do want is for PvP'ers to be useful to PvE players. Thats all.
And that doesn't mean escorting players through PvP zones. It could be types of loot or resources that can only be got in a PvP zone - that PvE players need PvP players to go and get. You need to have a scout to go and collect bone and hide why not have to have a PvP'er to collect special spice components that can only be found in Kessel?
Message Edited by DND_Cas on 11-10-2004 11:07 AM
Nice Idea, but you still would only have to deal with PvP guys and the PvE would not be involved as they send you.
M3t4tr0N wrote:
DND_Cas wrote:
I don't want to force PvP on anyone. Where did I state that? Please show me so I can correct it immediately.
What I do want is for PvP'ers to be useful to PvE players. Thats all.
And that doesn't mean escorting players through PvP zones. It could be types of loot or resources that can only be got in a PvP zone - that PvE players need PvP players to go and get. You need to have a scout to go and collect bone and hide why not have to have a PvP'er to collect special spice components that can only be found in Kessel?
So to
Now come on ... where did I say that you said you wanted to force PvP on people. Read that post and subsequent posts. I am just expressing my opinion on the issues around PvP; putting the master mission in Kessel forcing PvP is what I was talking about. The whole master mission in kessel issue seems to be clouding what are the central problems with PvP and it is those I was discussing. I actually see your point of view here, but the Kessel mission is a red herring.
Message Edited by M3t4tr0N on 11-10-2004 11:12 AM
No no you misunderstand. I wanted to know if I had implied it that so I could change it so others who readthis threadwouldn't get confused. Not having a go or anything.
And while the whole Kessel mission itselfis a red herring TH's response to some of the PvP'ers problems with it, whichis the point of this thread, was not.