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Uther27 wrote:

No one thinks it is acceptable to have load killing be a possibility. I think that having the master missions in a PVP zone is fine. Keep it there, and it will only get better. Think of ways around it, adapt, overcome. The example of the couple of people waiting at the point where you get the mission to launch. Counteract it by already having the rest of your group sitting there in Kessel waiting to load kill them or keep them busy. There are ways around everything, even this.

Please don't be so narrow-minded in your thinking that you cannot accept a new challenge. This is especially true of an experience that is a bit outside of your normal playing. That is the real reason for these types of games and why the Devs made the decision to put it into Kessel to begin with. To grow in your abilities, both physically and emotionally, and work with others to overcome obstacles.

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Narrow-mindedness is not the problem of those against this mission being in Kessel. Narrow-mindedness is the problem of those people saying it should stay, and the rest of us need to "learn to play the game the right way."

Are you a hardcore PvPer? Do you feel the only time you have fun is when you are PvPing? If so, great, that's your choice. Now we're going to add a new profession to the game, and we're not going to tell you this until you find out the hard way, but the ONLY way you can master is to do only PVE. You can't get the Master Box if you participate in PVP. Sounds fair, right? I mean, you should just learn to adapt and play the game my way, because that's the right way to play it. And since you don't want to do only PVE, well, you don't *have* to take that profession, do you? Even if it's one of the defining professions, and gives access to one of the defining items for Star Wars in a lot of peoples minds. I mean, after all, Piloting is an option, right? You don't have to fly around in a ship to experience the Star Wars feel, it wasn't a MAJOR part of the movies or the novels or anything.

THAT is narrow-mindedness, and THAT is what the arguments given by every person who has supported leaving this in an Open PVP zone has voiced.
Abilities have NOTHING TO DO with Load killing. They have nothing to do with being one-shot killed by a player while you are engaged in combat with your mission objective. How much fun would the GCW be, or would your game be, if you had to fight one particular, fairly hard to kill (as in takes a lot of damage and time, AI isn't always the factor on difficulty) MOB, but I could come up from behind you and one-shot kill you at any time during your fight, and you'd fail it? So now you have to go through at least 2 loading screens to get back to the person who has assigned you this mission, and get the mission started all over again. Then you have to go through the loading screens again, and when you get to the zone for your mob, you die before you even load in, because I camped the only entry point and killed you, with no chance to even react, let alone defend yourself.

Is this extreme? Not really, happened to me more than a few times in Beta, and has been given as the reason for this thread more than once in Live. Pretending the problem isn't as bad as it sounds doesn't make it true. Trying to detract the points with petty insults and arrogance doesn't invalidate the argument. The only narrow-mindedness here is your view-point that if I don't want to be FORCED into a PVP situation, then I'm just not choosing to play the game the right way.

As far as "Get a group of friends to help, blah blah", have you even read this thread? How, exactly, are my friends supposed to load into the system, and kill the people that are load killing me, when they'll get load killed before they can do anything too? Your "solution" isn't worth jack. Now, if they implement a 30 second immunity to give you time to load and prepare, that's one thing, then you can get a group together to assist you and have a fighting chance. But that hasn't been implemented yet. These complaints existed in Beta, and still exist in live, so the argument (Whether you yourself made it or not doesn't matter at this point) that it's only been live x amount of time, is moot. The problem existed BEFORE it went live, and still exists now that it IS Live.

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MusicManZarick wrote:

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Uther27 wrote:

No one thinks it is acceptable to have load killing be a possibility. I think that having the master missions in a PVP zone is fine. Keep it there, and it will only get better. Think of ways around it, adapt, overcome. The example of the couple of people waiting at the point where you get the mission to launch. Counteract it by already having the rest of your group sitting there in Kessel waiting to load kill them or keep them busy. There are ways around everything, even this.

Please don't be so narrow-minded in your thinking that you cannot accept a new challenge. This is especially true of an experience that is a bit outside of your normal playing. That is the real reason for these types of games and why the Devs made the decision to put it into Kessel to begin with. To grow in your abilities, both physically and emotionally, and work with others to overcome obstacles.

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Narrow-mindedness is not the problem of those against this mission being in Kessel. Narrow-mindedness is the problem of those people saying it should stay, and the rest of us need to "learn to play the game the right way."

Are you a hardcore PvPer? Do you feel the only time you have fun is when you are PvPing? If so, great, that's your choice. Now we're going to add a new profession to the game, and we're not going to tell you this until you find out the hard way, but the ONLY way you can master is to do only PVE. You can't get the Master Box if you participate in PVP. Sounds fair, right? I mean, you should just learn to adapt and play the game my way, because that's the right way to play it. And since you don't want to do only PVE, well, you don't *have* to take that profession, do you? Even if it's one of the defining professions, and gives access to one of the defining items for Star Wars in a lot of peoples minds. I mean, after all, Piloting is an option, right? You don't have to fly around in a ship to experience the Star Wars feel, it wasn't a MAJOR part of the movies or the novels or anything.

THAT is narrow-mindedness, and THAT is what the arguments given by every person who has supported leaving this in an Open PVP zone has voiced.
Abilities have NOTHING TO DO with Load killing. They have nothing to do with being one-shot killed by a player while you are engaged in combat with your mission objective. How much fun would the GCW be, or would your game be, if you had to fight one particular, fairly hard to kill (as in takes a lot of damage and time, AI isn't always the factor on difficulty) MOB, but I could come up from behind you and one-shot kill you at any time during your fight, and you'd fail it? So now you have to go through at least 2 loading screens to get back to the person who has assigned you this mission, and get the mission started all over again. Then you have to go through the loading screens again, and when you get to the zone for your mob, you die before you even load in, because I camped the only entry point and killed you, with no chance to even react, let alone defend yourself.

Is this extreme? Not really, happened to me more than a few times in Beta, and has been given as the reason for this thread more than once in Live. Pretending the problem isn't as bad as it sounds doesn't make it true. Trying to detract the points with petty insults and arrogance doesn't invalidate the argument. The only narrow-mindedness here is your view-point that if I don't want to be FORCED into a PVP situation, then I'm just not choosing to play the game the right way.

As far as "Get a group of friends to help, blah blah", have you even read this thread? How, exactly, are my friends supposed to load into the system, and kill the people that are load killing me, when they'll get load killed before they can do anything too? Your "solution" isn't worth jack. Now, if they implement a 30 second immunity to give you time to load and prepare, that's one thing, then you can get a group together to assist you and have a fighting chance. But that hasn't been implemented yet. These complaints existed in Beta, and still exist in live, so the argument (Whether you yourself made it or not doesn't matter at this point) that it's only been live x amount of time, is moot. The problem existed BEFORE it went live, and still exists now that it IS Live.

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Thepoint is if you get dead you have to do the loading screens regardless of if it was a NPC or a player. The Devs have used the Kessel zone as a variable difficulty area that has some extremes involved in getting your Mastery for being a pilot. That is the problem I have with all of this moaning and comlaining. Being "forced" to PVP was a choice the Devs have made, and a good one. Other PVPrs are doing exactly what they are supposed to, make the mission harder for others.

It makes me angry to see all of the PVE people freak out for fear that something is going to get harder and harder to do without working with others and making it happen. If we fix it ourselves don't you think that would be better, instead of asking the Devs to hand feed us everything?

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Uther27 wrote:
No I'm not a particularly hard-core PVPer. I generally don't PVP on the ground, I find the lack of skill and the ability to macro fight appalling, and only do it when my guild needs me to. To be honest, the only time I have been overt in my ship has, besides Kessel, was to play around while doing missions hoping that someone would take a shot at me.

The point is if you get dead you have to do the loading screens regardless of if it was a NPC or a player. The Devs have used the Kessel zone as a variable difficulty area that has some extremes involved in getting your Mastery for being a pilot. That is the problem I have with all of this moaning and comlaining. Being "forced" to PVP was a choice the Devs have made, and a good one. Other PVPrs are doing exactly what they are supposed to, make the mission harder for others.

It makes me angry to see all of the PVE people freak out for fear that something is going to get harder and harder to do without working with others and making it happen. If we fix it ourselves don't you think that would be better, instead of asking the Devs to hand feed us everything?

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The "Point" is, against an NPC, I'll live more than 1 shot and have a chance to USE my skills to fight back. I'm not against PVP in the ships, I consider myself a fairly good pilot, having played the entire X-Wing series in multi-player mode vs. other players, even having been in a clan for a long time when X-Wing Alliance was playable on the Zone. (It may still be, not sure.) I even found myself able to fly the ships in Battlefront without a joystick and doing pretty decently in PVP there. However, as borked as the PVP is in space right now, there is NO amount of skill involved, and there is NO amount of ability that can help you, when your ship gets blown away regardless of what kind of equipment you have on it. The Imperial benefit of being able to call in a bombing raid, and the Privateer benefit of being able to call in Pirates, are useless because the players ignore the NPC ships, and the NPC ships retreat as soon as the player is killed. All it takes is 1-2, sometimes maybe up to 3-4 shots from a player vessel, and your dead. End of story. If that vessel gets those 1-4 shots in before you even have a chance to see your screen, your skill is useless. So tell me your grand plan to "fix it ourselves" so that a fight that is basically over as soon as the first shot hits can be "better" without Dev intervention?

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It makes me angry to see all of the PVE people freak out for fear that something is going to get harder and harder...

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If someone having a different opinion than you makes you "angry", you need to turn your computer off, go outside, and experience real life. It irritates me how some of you can be so self-righteous and arrogant that you assume only YOU know how to play the game, and only you are playing the right way, and the rest of us have to adapt to your playstyle.
Doesn't make me angry though, because there are more important things in life than you.

Message Edited by MusicManZarick on 11-09-2004 01:47 PM

No someone having a different opinion does not make me angry. What makes me angry are people trying to skirt issues and making things sound so hard that they get it fed to them on a spoon as opposed to earning it. But you are right, it certainly is not enough to be angry about. Let's just go ahead and break out the blue frogs and let everyone get everything they want. That would be fun. Everyone would be happy.

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Uther27 wrote:

No someone having a different opinion does not make me angry. What makes me angry are people trying to skirt issues and making things sound so hard that they get it fed to them on a spoon as opposed to earning it. But you are right, it certainly is not enough to be angry about. Let's just go ahead and break out the blue frogs and let everyone get everything they want. That would be fun. Everyone would be happy.

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Now you're just being asinine in an attempt, rather weak I'll add, to belittle my opinions. That's rather sad, really, that you stoop so low rather than discuss the issues.. Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. Perhaps you should go back and try reading what has been said.

But, as a side note, I and the OP should probably both thank you, your petty rhetoric and poorly-veiled insults have had a nice effect of keeping this topic bumped up and in view.

Apparently now it's if you don't PVP you just want everything handed to you, huh? No one has earned anything without PVPing that they have, all the non-PVP players are macroers and exploiters? That's very amusing, and honestly ironic, since some of the more judgmental "hardcore PVE" players have the same opinion of PVP players. Pathetic on both parts, and nothing more than an attempt at smoke and mirrors to obfuscate the issue at hand. If your argument is so valid, then present a real point instead of relying on the cheap theatrics to detract from the argument. That same goes for the PVE player who are arguing that "all" PVPers are griefers. I've got a lot of friends in game who are hardcore PVP players, and they are good people. The problem is too much stereotyping, where everyone jumps to the conclusion that just because one person did it, everyone else will. Do I think every person who PVP's in space is a griefer or a "ganker"? Not at all. You yourself may be a very cool person who plays with respect and plays fairly. If that's the case, I applaud you. That doesnt' change the fact, however, that there are several people who do NOT do so, who's sole form of enjoyment is ruining anyone else's. And until such time as those people are not capable of ruining my fun, or your fun, or anyone else's fun, I'll continue to argue that this system is broken in it's current format, and needs to be revised.

I really don't care about the forced pvp stuff what I do care about is the people that mastered the pilot profesion when it was quiet and are now griefing.
There was another post here about doing the missions when it was quiet.

How are they supposed to do this exactly ?
If they need help taking out the corvette with the help of their friends ?

And by the time jtl gets released in the uk the griefers will near enough have control over the pvp sectors.

For fun why can't the devs knock the griefers down to 4/4/4/4 and make them redo their master mission with them getting griefed see how much they whine then.

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RamaDragonStar wrote:

Forced PVP is a bad idea.

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Forced PVP is a great idea! Stop whinning.

However you may like this idea:

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Slarus wrote:
33 profession don't do this, nor do they have mission based advancement. No one EVER before JTL suggested that Mastering ANY profession should open you up to PvP, so the idea is new with this expansion only. Yet every instance, EVERY one that has PvP in it where normally you would not there are constant complaints about the PvP.

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I have to disagree with you here.. you DO have to PVP to get to the higher levels of Jedi. However, I also disagree with Jedi running around in the first place, given the time-frame of the game, but that's a moot point. However, I agree with Jedi having the PVP requirements, because they SHOULD be rare. More than they are now. A master Pilot, however, should not be something that is "rare". The ability to fly a YT-1300 should not be limited to only PVP players, when it is one of the most common ships in the galaxy for traders, both honest and smugglers, and is one of the easier ships in official canon to get.

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Uther27 wrote:

I think that if you want this mission moved out of Kessel that you want the difficulty toned down to be able to solo it by removing random players able to attack you. I think that given enough time by myself that I can take the gunships and corvette by myself.

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No. I've told you. 15 players couldn't take it because of 4 Imperial Aces. They can spawn and come back in a minute. As Rebels, we spawn in Dant and we can only get 3/4 damage fixed at the station every 5 minutes. That's one problem. The other problem is that we are all in tier 3 or tier 4 ships (not everyone flies an A-Wing) and they were in Tie Oppressors.

I don't want to solo it. I do want a reasonable chance at it.

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Uther27 wrote:

I am still firmly convinced that with proper planning and execution that accomplishing this mission will always be possible.

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If part of that planning involves finding a time when there's no other players around, it shows the problem with the system now, doesn't it?

I guess my point is, I see Jedi, given the time frame of the game as being something extra, that isn't part of what makes this game Star Wars. In fact, the large amount of Jedi running around breaks so far from SW Canon, FOR THE TIME FRAME (can't emphasize that enough) that it's ridiculous. Pilots, however, are not something that is "rare", not hunted down and killed by Lord Vader personally. Some people may not see the distinction, and may not care about canon at all. From that standpoint, then I agree, Forced PVP should never happen. However, given my personal standpoint on Jedi, and the mistake they are for this game, all together now, for this time frame, I don't see it as Forced PVP, because you don't have to play a Jedi to have the Star Wars feel. Han, Chewie, Boba Fett, Lando, Wedge Antilles, Hobbie, Biggs Darklighter, Admiral Ackbar, the countless ST's and Rebel Soldiers, Imp and Rebel Pilots,none of these beings were Jedi, yet all of them played important roles in the Star Wars story. The only Jedi during this time frame were Luke and Yoda, and Yoda hasn't even been found yet. Then you have the Sith of Vader and Palpatine. A few "Force Adepts" in the form of the Emperors Hand, and the Force Witches, but you can achieve that level without having to get into the PVP portion of the "template" if I understand it right. (If I'm wrong, I apologize, it's happened before!!), so you are still not FORCED into PVP to get to a "Force User" level that is appropriate for the official canon storyline.