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Thread: Okay, LET'S DO THIS CONSTRUCTIVELY SO THE DEVS WILL NOTICE! RE: KESSEL
truewildman wrote:
Taikan wrote:
As it stands now if you like PvP go to deep space.
I can't. I'm neutral. I'm a smuggler. ButI can't attack nor be attacked by the police now. I'm a criminal with no fear of repercussion now.
You are supposed to be able to go into deep space through the neutral station in the dath sector.
To do that you are supposed to declare whether you back the imperials or rebels though
Scoooter wrote:
truewildman wrote:
Taikan wrote:
As it stands now if you like PvP go to deep space.
I can't. I'm neutral. I'm a smuggler. ButI can't attack nor be attacked by the police now. I'm a criminal with no fear of repercussion now.
You are supposed to be able to go into deep space through the neutral station in the dath sector.
To do that you are supposed to declare whether you back the imperials or rebels though
Exactly. From an RP standpoint, it doesn't work. That's what I liked about Kessel.
1. I can attack or be attacked by both sides, thus adding my RP value, and what little smuggler content I can glean out of this game.
2. I don't have to be a master.
If you want no holds barred pvp go play a FPS that is what they are for.
IrovMistwalker wrote:
When you look at this idea, it makes zero sense. Like trying to compare apples and oranges. There is no correlation between the jedi grind and pilot. Hence your entire base of your argument it gone.
If you want no holds barred pvp go play a FPS that is what they are for.
Nono, no grind, but the difficulty of being master and the connotation that entails.
I want to expand on the point truewildman was making. Twitch based and turn based games are very different. Twitch PvP and turn based PvP are not the same, and you cannot compare them. This is why.
Differences between SWG and JTL
Turn based combat depends on maximizing the variables in your favor. Getting the right character template, the right equipment, buffs, macro’s etc. Twitch based is about getting the reticle on the target, and not getting hit yourself. Moving up the skill tree in SWG not only gives you better equipment, but it makes you a better player, moving up the skill tree in JTL only gives you better equipment. Equipment matters on JTL, but not as much as it does on the turn based ground game. For example, I can now take down tier 3's with a level one ship and equipment. It would be impossible for a player to take down an equivalent SWG NPC with level one equipment.
PvE in SWG and JTL
In SWG, the PvE is vastly superior. The difficulty steadily increases, and there is always a challenge. This is probably why people who prefer PvE like games like SWG. In JTL, the PvE is not as challenging. That is why every single twitch game in the last few years has had a significant PvP element to it. There is a large and growing number of twitch gamers who will only PvP and look on PvE as little more than target practice. Out flying and out gunning the computer is not challenging and not satisfying for them.
PvP in SWG and JTL
In SWG, PvP can be much more difficult than in JTL. In SWG, the player who was better at stacking the variables in his favor wins. It is a bit like a game of chess in that you can see that you are going to lose several moves in advance. In JTL, PvP should come down to twitch based skill.
My Point
This means that in SWG, you have PvE which remains challenging (and enjoyable) at all levels, and PvP which presents significant challenges which does not appeal to all players. In JTL the challenge of PvE drops off with time and experience, however PvP challenge remains consistent throughout and presents combat challenges very similar to PvE.
So where am I going with all this:
1) I want PvE players to understand that the needs of PvP players in JTL are different from the needs of PvP players in SWG, and that is why PvP players want special PvP content in JTL.
2) I want PvP players in JTL to understand why PvP is unacceptable to many players from SWG. If PvPing is more fun in JTL, let them come to the game on their own, and don’t force them into it.
Solutions
I believe the solution is to allow PvE players access to all equipment without PvPing. It does no harm to the PvP’ers and may even help them as PvE players may eventually make the switch to PvP if they are not driven away by unpleasant, force PvP experiences.
PvP players should be given the opportunity to earn non-enhancement perks. Such as special titles, badges, clothing, etc recognizing accomplishments from your first kill, to "King of the Server" These would give PvP’ers what they want most, bragging rights for their PvP accomplishments. It does no harm to the PvEers since these perks do not give any benefit to the player whatsoever. It only says you are good at PvPing, which they don’t want to do anyways.
Message Edited by IntoTheGarbage on 11-12-2004 03:52 PM
truewildman wrote:
There is quite the controversy going on in here about the master mission being in Kessel. Seems there are many that think that everyone and their grandma should be able to be master pilot.
However, being an anti-ground PvP myself, I also understand the viewpoint that players should not be forced into PvP. So, I propose this idea:
4444 pilots can do a strictly PvE mission outside of Kessel to become "Master". Master rewards remain the same, including MP ships.
/agree
Leave Kessel as it is.
Differences between SWG and JTL
Turn based combat depends on maximizing the variables in your favor. Getting the right character template, the right equipment, buffs, macro’s etc. Twitch based is about getting the reticle on the target, and not getting hit yourself. Moving up the skill tree in SWG not only gives you better equipment, but it makes you a better player, moving up the skill tree in JTL only gives you better equipment. Equipment matters on JTL, but not as much as it does on the turn based ground game. For example, I can now take down tier 3's with a level one ship and equipment. It would be impossible for a player to take down an equivalent SWG NPC with level one equipment.
This is somewhat misleading though. Twitch and turn are indeed different, but the game is the same basic core, that core is the advancement trees are PvE based because PvP is unreliable as a means for advancement. ALL missions, ground and space have ONLY PvE requirements. The Pilot progression tree is NOT a skill set as it is on the ground game, skill is YOUR piloting ability, the pilot progression is only for access to new equipment and certs, none of the items you get in the pilot progression tree help you in PvP so it is not skill based it is achievement based. A teir 1 pilot CAN take out a Master pilot so the teir one has the better skills but not the better progression.
PvE in SWG and JTL
In SWG, the PvE is vastly superior. The difficulty steadily increases, and there is always a challenge. This is probably why people who prefer PvE like games like SWG. In JTL, the PvE is not as challenging. That is why every single twitch game in the last few years has had a significant PvP element to it. There is a large and growing number of twitch gamers who will only PvP and look on PvE as little more than target practice. Out flying and out gunning the computer is not challenging and not satisfying for them.
This is also misleading, there are alot of threads screaming about how tough the PvE challenges are, so if your right how is it people are having trouble? Answer is simple if you advanced to master within the first month then it's clear you are more talented PvP or not, but how few people will get master in a month and how many will take a few months? While almost anyone can master a ground profession in a week, not even close to as many can do it with pilot in that time, the PvE challenges are in fact challenging to many dont look at the boards as your only source or a guild, most casual gammers arent in guilds and dont post here they are the majority, the only one who has a pulse on thier opinion in detail is the CSR data.
PvP in SWG and JTL
In SWG, PvP can be much more difficult than in JTL. In SWG, the player who was better at stacking the variables in his favor wins. It is a bit like a game of chess in that you can see that you are going to lose several moves in advance. In JTL, PvP should come down to twitch based skill.
My Point
This means that in SWG, you have PvE which remains challenging (and enjoyable) at all levels, and PvP which presents significant challenges which does not appeal to all players. In JTL the challenge of PvE drops off with time and experience, however PvP challenge remains consistent throughout and presents combat challenges very similar to PvE.
Yet watch where you go with this PvP should come down to twitch based skill.
1) I want PvE players to understand that the needs of PvP players in JTL are different from the needs of PvP players in SWG, and that is why PvP players want special PvP content in JTL.
But no one deserves special content particularly the minority of players. Your asking that PvE players acknowledge while they are the majority the game should favor the minority and that the $15 per month is not the same as a diehard PvPers $15 per month. PvPers can PvP, PvEers can refuse to PvP that is how it should be this game is not marketed as a PvP game it is marketed as a consensual PvP game.
2) I want PvP players in JTL to understand why PvP is unacceptable to many players from SWG. If PvPing is more fun in JTL, let them come to the game on their own, and don’t force them into it.
But force us to make you special? it seems to be quite one sided.
Solutions
I believe the solution is to allow PvE players access to all equipment without PvPing. It does no harm to the PvP’ers and may even help them as PvE players may eventually make the switch to PvP if they are not driven away by unpleasant, force PvP experiences.
PvP players should be given the opportunity to earn non-enhancement perks. Such as special titles, badges, clothing, etc recognizing accomplishments from your first kill, to "King of the Server" These would give PvP’ers what they want most, bragging rights for their PvP accomplishments. It does no harm to the PvEers since these perks do not give any benefit to the player whatsoever. It only says you are good at PvPing, which they don’t want to do anyways.
Nope, not one shred of basis for special badges and titles or what not, it's pandering and ego stroking. I would suggest a kill counter:
Red for PvP kills
Orange for PvE kills
You can add data terminals or add to the ship terms a way to look up the Top ten PvP and top ten PvE for day, week, year and lifetime, it's the recognition that PvPers want without resorting to special ego stroking for one side or the other, both can use it, benifit from it, or ignore it as they see fit.
both get the content to use, and each can assess thier own meaning to it.Your king of the server has the most of whatever kills you find most suitable, no one get special treatment but everyone who wants something to show off has it availible. Before suggesting rewards or special recognition try and come up with a solution that doesnt tell one side they are worthless or inferior.
Ok, for the sake of sanity, i will only quote you and will not re-quote myself....
This is somewhat misleading though. Twitch and turn are indeed different, but the game is the same basic core, that core is the advancement trees are PvE based because PvP is unreliable as a means for advancement. ALL missions, ground and space have ONLY PvE requirements. The Pilot progression tree is NOT a skill set as it is on the ground game, skill is YOUR piloting ability, the pilot progression is only for access to new equipment and certs, none of the items you get in the pilot progression tree help you in PvP so it is not skill based it is achievement based. A teir 1 pilot CAN take out a Master pilot so the teir one has the better skills but not the better progression.
If a tier 1 can take out a master pilot, doesn't that make the advancement trees, meaningless to the combat system, and not the core of the system to JTL? Yes, players generally advance up each tree through PvE in both systems. That makes PvE the key to advancement in both, but not the core of the combat system. The advancement tree is certainly the core to SWG combat, but it is the actual players ability (which can be honed to a certain degree through PvE) which is the core to JTL combat.
If all you want to do is advance to master pilot and then PvE, (and there is nothing wrong with that) then the core goals are the same, but that is a matter of personal preference. If you are playing just for the experience of twitch gaming (like myself and many other twitch gamers) there is very little incentive to advance beyond the point where you have the certifications for the equipment you want. (Aside from the bragging rights, but I will get to that.) So the core goals can be very different, depending on your preference.
This is also misleading, there are alot of threads screaming about how tough the PvE challenges are, so if your right how is it people are having trouble? Answer is simple if you advanced to master within the first month then it's clear you are more talented PvP or not, but how few people will get master in a month and how many will take a few months? While almost anyone can master a ground profession in a week, not even close to as many can do it with pilot in that time, the PvE challenges are in fact challenging to many dont look at the boards as your only source or a guild, most casual gammers arent in guilds and dont post here they are the majority, the only one who has a pulse on thier opinion in detail is the CSR data.
Yes twitch challenges can be made such that no player can accomplish it on their own. Since you cannot tweak the variables in you favor in twitch, it is easy for the devs to make a mission, such as the vette, impossible to solo. It is not so easy to do this in SWG. Consider the corvette mission (the SWG corvette mission I mean) it was thought to be impossible to solo, yet some players claim to have done it, look how hard they made the Death Watch Bunker, this was done to guarantee that now player ever found a way to do it on their own. This is because when confronted with a challenge like this in the ground game, adept turn based players set about finding a way to overcome it by tweaking the numbers and playing the game well.
However in JTL a mission can simply be placed beyond the range of human abilities. It is simply impossible for a single player to evade all the fire from the corvette and it’s escort while at the same time place enough fire on them to destroy them. No twitch gamer, no matter how hard core, would try this more than a couple times before seeing the futility.
So while PvE missions can be made to difficult for a single player, those missions are also not challenging because they cannot be done. Sorting out the missions that are possible from the ones that are impossible can be an enjoyable PvE experience, but once that line has been drawn most players tire of it.
But no one deserves special content particularly the minority of players. Your asking that PvE players acknowledge while they are the majority the game should favor the minority and that the $15 per month is not the same as a diehard PvPers $15 per month. PvPers can PvP, PvEers can refuse to PvP that is how it should be this game is not marketed as a PvP game it is marketed as a consensual PvP game.
I disagree, everyone deserves special content. This game should have something in it for everyone. I am not asking for favoritism, I am asking for a small amount of PvP content. If we are 10% of the JTL community, then give us 10% of the content. Is that unfair to anyone? Finally, I am not advocating mandatory PvP, I am strongly against it. And I said so my conclusion.
Nope, not one shred of basis for special badges and titles or what not, it's pandering and ego stroking. I would suggest a kill counter:
Red for PvP kills
Orange for PvE kills
You can add data terminals or add to the ship terms a way to look up the Top ten PvP and top ten PvE for day, week, year and lifetime, it's the recognition that PvPers want without resorting to special ego stroking for one side or the other, both can use it, benifit from it, or ignore it as they see fit.
both get the content to use, and each can assess thier own meaning to it. Your king of the server has the most of whatever kills you find most suitable, no one get special treatment but everyone who wants something to show off has it availible. Before suggesting rewards or special recognition try and come up with a solution that doesnt tell one side they are worthless or inferior.
The counter would be fun, I would like to see something like that. But how is a counter different from an otherwise meaningless badge, title or article of clothing? Yes, it is all just ego stroking, what is wrong with that? This is supposed to be fun right? Ego stoking should be acceptable as long as it is praising players and not putting other players down. The content I want would do just that.
I was trying to figure out why you are against content for PvP’ers if that content would not affect you in any way. I suppose you have spelt that out in your last sentence. I don’t want content that says non PvP’ers are worthless or inferior. I don’t want to say that about anyone, and anyone who asked it from the dev’s should be laughed off the forums. Let’s be clear, I am asking for minor things with no skill mods such as a badge or title, and some minor articles of clothing. This is insignificant content, and certainly reflects our minority status in the game. I believe that it would only state that you are good at PvPing. It do not believe that it says non PvP’ers are worthless or inferior. If you do believe it says that, then we will simply have to agree to disagree on that point.