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MillaMerani wrote:

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LowbaTherf wrote:

I agree that grouping should be rewarded (it is a reward in itself as it makes your life easier) but why on earth should PvPers rewarded to the detriment of PvEers? This expansion was designed for everybody, I did not see in the ads that JTL was designed to reward PvP-ers. If they are willing to develop an expansion that rewards PvPers, okay, that's fine, they should have their own kind of fun, because I do not want to deny them their fun.

You know, when I bought the expansion pack, it didn't say that PvPers would NOT be rewarded. I see no problem rewarding them by letting them have an easier time getting master, because they are going to be better PvPers.

Message Edited by MillaMerani on 11-09-2004 06:12 PM

I think you are still missing my point which is simple. My message was: don't force PvEers do what they don't like. Reward PvPers as you like, but without affecting the PvEer's enjoyment of the game. Many people don't like PvP, either because they lack the skill (or rather the money to buy the uber gear in the ground game) or they just don't like beating up other RL people even in a virtual world. Many people play this game for the pure enjoyment of the genre, and not to be anuber and "I'm better than thou" guy. Flying a ship like an YT-1300 should not bethe privilege of a small group of players who consider themselves 'elite' or whatever. Such essential SW content should be available to all without sacrificing the "consentual PvP" principle of the game.

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My point is that you can play the game and enjoy it without PvP, and you can play the game and enjoy it without a YT-1300. It is a choice to get this "essential SW content" and it is a choice to PvP. In fact one could argue that PvP is essential to SW because people in Star Wars fought with each other. This is a facetious arguement, however, my point is that what is essential to Star Wars is up to the player.I love the Falcon, but my favorite YT ship is the YT-2000. If they put the YT-2000 into the game I will need to choose between flying an X-Wing, which I love, and flying the YT-2000. It is a choice I will make, and I will probably make other choices designed to allow me to fly the ship. I will NOT be forced to do ANYTHING at all to get my YT-2000, I will have chosen to do so. To get the YT-1300 you need to make some choices including going into a PvP zone. If you were suddenly dropped into a PvP zone, that would be forcing someone to do it. This is simply a choice that you do not like. There is a difference.

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Scudder wrote:

I don't want to PvP. You may not understand why but that doesn't really matter. Force me to PvP in order to get somewhere in this game and I'll find another game to play. This isn't a threat, it's a fact.

I play this game for totally different reasons than the people who think they are uber because they have a good template and can press a function key faster than anyone else.

Regardless of what anyone says, my attitude is shared by a lot of people in this game and it was said that the reason SWG used the declare feature was so that no one ever had to PvP. If this is going to change, so be it. Just tell us so we can make an informed decision about whether or not we wish to continue paying for this game.

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You do not have to stop playing the game, you just do not get the extras that other people who do PvP get.

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Xconxors wrote:

Landing the first killing shot from a distance is not challenging as the PvP'ers contend.Why are they holding onto that? Superior twitch skills, tacticsor gear mean nothing in Kessel.

Not ONE PvP'er has clearly identified why it's so darn important to them that forced PvP for master remains in Kessel.

This forces me to conclude that they really are just looking for gank fodder. Or perhaps they just want to bump the number of people in PvP.

There's a reason why PvP is so unpopular. Deal with it guys. No one wants to play with you. It has nothing to do withthe challenge. Please drop that argument- no one is buying it.

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Did you read this thread? I DO NOT PVP!!!! I just support keeping this mission in the game.And it is about challenge. If it was easy with PvP, noone would complain.The fact that itis in a PvP zone adds challenge because you must keep your eyes open for enemy players and enemy NPCs. It is more variables you need to keep your mind on.

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Slarus wrote:

Did you read this thread? I DO NOT PVP!!!! I just support keeping this mission in the game.And it is about challenge. If it was easy with PvP, noone would complain.The fact that itis in a PvP zone adds challenge because you must keep your eyes open for enemy players and enemy NPCs. It is more variables you need to keep your mind on.

It's resolved for now, but I for one just don't like to do PvP, except on rare occassions with firends and guildies people I know can show restriant. That is why I was against it, forced PvP, not any challenge issue, PvP as it is now is EASIER not harder then PvE there is no challenge.

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I understand your point, I was hoping they would fix PvP and not just abandon this great idea to add challenge. Well, if what I read about Kessel is true, that it became PvE, I guess I should gracefully bow out.

/concede

All your PvP needs in an MMO:

www.planetside.com

You want PvP, go give it a try. 100% MMO PVP. No uber templates, just uber weapons

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LowbaTherf wrote:

No I don't. Anything that makes it different is good,

So anything that makes it different and good for you should be accepted by everbody else?. You welcome this change because PvP is your thing, but a huge number of players say it is unfair because they don't want PvP, and you simply opt for denying them this master title because you see PvP as something good and challenging, and you cannot accept that other people don't like it or you seem to accept it but you offer them as the only alternative the option of not doing the mission, instead of proposing a solution that is acceptable for both groups.

and the more differences the better it is. Just because it would be still radically different without the PvP, it should keep the PvP to keep it even more different.

Again, this is a bit selfish. You ignore that in this case the developers gave the PvPers something(you don't have to do anything that you don't want as you like PvP) but PvE'ers are forced to do something that they do not like or despise. You may say it is impossible to find a solution that pleases everbody, but in this case this argument would be moot, as there is such a solution. Give players content that is available both in the PvP zone for increased challange, and in the PVE zone, for pure fun for PvE'ers. And the same solution could be applied to this problem with the master title. Apparently you have a hard time understanding that tastes differ, and none of the differing tastes are superior tothe others. You consider PvP a superior experience. Under the current circumstances, I don't. Even if it were superior, PvP should not be popularized in the form of a change in the game's consentual PvP policy, aimed at force feeding the "sweet taste" of PvP and 'challenge' to the non believers.

It's not a situation that PvP'ers and challenge lovers get somethingextra that leaves the non-PvP masses unaffected. On the contrary, this change gives a serious headache to PvE'ers, who consider the difficulty gap between the master mission and the previous missions deep enough without the additional harassment from other players.

If you want recognition for being an ace player who excels not only against NPC's but also against other players, why don't you ask for a PvP pilot ranking scheme? Instead, you are trying to maintain a controversial situation where only one group of the affected players is forced to compromise their preferences - the massesof PVE'ers for whom the fact that this game was based on consentual PvP was a major factor when they decided to play it.

And as a final note: If this game was truly about skill, PvP'ers would fight in stock craft and the damage output of weapons would not be determined by invisible dice rolls. But then this game would be called X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter.

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MillaMerani wrote:

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LowbaTherf wrote:

No I don't. Anything that makes it different is good,

So anything that makes it different and good for you should be accepted by everbody else?. You welcome this change because PvP is your thing, but a huge number of players say it is unfair because they don't want PvP, and you simply opt for denying them this master title because you see PvP as something good and challenging, and you cannot accept that other people don't like it or you seem to accept it but you offer them as the only alternative the option of not doing the mission, instead of proposing a solution that is acceptable for both groups.

and the more differences the better it is. Just because it would be still radically different without the PvP, it should keep the PvP to keep it even more different.

Again, this is a bit selfish. You ignore that in this case the developers gave the PvPers something(you don't have to do anything that you don't want as you like PvP) but PvE'ers are forced to do something that they do not like or despise. You may say it is impossible to find a solution that pleases everbody, but in this case this argument would be moot, as there is such a solution. Give players content that is available both in the PvP zone for increased challange, and in the PVE zone, for pure fun for PvE'ers. And the same solution could be applied to this problem with the master title. Apparently you have a hard time understanding that tastes differ, and none of the differing tastes are superior tothe others. You consider PvP a superior experience. Under the current circumstances, I don't. Even if it were superior, PvP should not be popularized in the form of a change in the game's consentual PvP policy, aimed at force feeding the "sweet taste" of PvP and 'challenge' to the non believers.

It's not a situation that PvP'ers and challenge lovers get somethingextra that leaves the non-PvP masses unaffected. On the contrary, this change gives a serious headache to PvE'ers, who consider the difficulty gap between the master mission and the previous missions deep enough without the additional harassment from other players.

If you want recognition for being an ace player who excels not only against NPC's but also against other players, why don't you ask for a PvP pilot ranking scheme? Instead, you are trying to maintain a controversial situation where only one group of the affected players is forced to compromise their preferences - the massesof PVE'ers for whom the fact that this game was based on consentual PvP was a major factor when they decided to play it.

And as a final note: If this game was truly about skill, PvP'ers would fight in stock craft and the damage output of weapons would not be determined by invisible dice rolls. But then this game would be called X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter.

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Message Edited by LowbaTherf on 11-09-2004 06:56 PM

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LowbaTherf wrote:
Did you read this thread? I DO NOT PVP!!!! I just support keeping this mission in the game. And it is about challenge. If it was easy with PvP, noone would complain.The fact that it is in a PvP zone adds challenge because you must keep your eyes open for enemy players and enemy NPCs. It is more variables you need to keep your mind on.

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Hmmm, I fail to see the challenge part imposed by players which couldn't just as well be added by NPCs. What you do get from upping the "challenge" by moving it to a PvP zone is a moot point, maybe you can take out 20 NPCs on your own, but making that number 40 and it becomes harder, something you seem to link directly with challenging. What's the challenging part? The reason you seem to find players "challenging" rather than NPCs are they are able to kill you fast, several here has stated PvP isn't skill based (well, some l33t kidz like to call it that, but I can't find the skill requirement), it's one run over and a few hits tops. So, the "challenge" herein is not getting 1-2 shot killed by random enemies. Make those enemies NPCs and the grief potential is gone, and you'd still have the "challenge". I for one don't consider the 1-2 shot kills a challenge, just a stupid oversigt, challeging would be where you can maneuver (not present), use your superious throttling and counter measure skills (not present), use your knowledge of a vast amount of specials (not present) to win the dogfight, not just being affraid of a one hit kill.