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Thread: Forced PVP and Griefing Ganking Teams
SupaPook
Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:08 pm
#27
Also Rama, the "Hundreds of players who will also quit" Is
1: Your assumption based on the filtering of facts through an idiots mind, also know as a carebear's mind.
2: A drop in the bucket. 195,000 players - 400 players = woopedy dang doo.
Castigula
Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:19 pm
#28
SupaPook wrote:
Lets see Rama.
If you have an MMORPG with NO forced pvp, then you will have almost NO pvp. People by nature do not like to voluntarily lose. As is ALREADY the case with this game, pvp usually consists of one side achieving overwhelming force after choosing voluntarily to pvp. There is more balance in a pvp situation when it is unconsentual pvp, rather than people being able to sit there and prep, and prep, and prep, and prep, until they have virtually assured their victory before they even click the declare button.
***This is my my point exactly, if PVP was so cool, so awesome, so desirable why wouldn't everyone want to do it? PVPers make up less than 5% of the population, so what you are saying is make 95% of the players play your way..hmmm. wow ,...am I the only one that sees something wrong with this.
btw people don't pvp.. not because of a fearoflosing, they dont pvp because of greifing and ganking, and the majority of pvpers are nothing but 14 year old immature arses. not all of them, but most of them.
so if you take the master mission out of kessel, it would become a barren wasteland? by your own post thats what i am guessing you think, I think that as well. 2 zones wasted for a very vocal MINORITY.
The majority of people dont pvp by their own choice, it needs to remain players choice. period.
leave the zones alone, just take master mission out of there.
dpk241
Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:31 pm
#29
SupaPook wrote:
.....
If you have an MMORPG with NO forced pvp, then you will have almost NO pvp. People by nature do not like to voluntarily lose. As is ALREADY the case with this game, pvp usually consists of one side achieving overwhelming force after choosing voluntarily to pvp. There is more balance in a pvp situation when it is unconsentual pvp, rather than people being able to sit there and prep, and prep, and prep, and prep, until they have virtually assured their victory before they even click the declare button.
I played Ultima for 7 years, and their system of attackable anywhere, anytime in the pvp zone, has worked for 7 years.
You step through that gate, you have a chance of dying. People know that, and people accept it. Its simply becuase this game is more mainstream, that there are carebears in here in the forums crying bloody murder because its not EverCrap and they cant just sit there and beat mindlessly on NPC's all day long to their hearts content.
....
That pretty much sums it up for me. You can fight a bot, or you can fight a person. Besides, the Ace pilots dont even have any advantage over the 4 4 4 4 pilots, since just about anyone can be taken out in a few shots. Instead of crying, why not simply take THEM out first.
I have edited your quote slightly to make my point.
You say that its better when the two opponents are unprepared. But if in Ultima you walk through the gate unprepared and there are 15 guys, who you can'tsee,waiting for you who are prepared you are going to die very quickly.
You can't see who is in Kessel until you get there. By the time your screen loads thereisa good change you are already dead.
So you will have to form a gank squad to counter the gank squad that is waiting for you as soon as you come out of hyperspace.
And you have to do all of this just to master a profession. That sounds kind of messed up.
Here is my theory about how it can work. Move the master mission out of Kessel (or into an instanced version of kessel).
Then Have a neutral zone in Kessel where you can spawn. But and this is very important. As soon as you leave the neutral zone or fire at someone inside the engagement zone the neutral zone dissapears. This prevents spawn camping and allows time for prep and enemy assesment.
I don't want the 75% damage reduction. 2 shot kills is realistic but if those two happen before you can react then there is not much fun in PVP.
JimerLins
Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:41 pm
#30
SupaPook wrote:Also Rama, the "Hundreds of players who will also quit" Is1: Your assumption based on the filtering of facts through an idiots mind, also know as a carebear's mind.2: A drop in the bucket. 195,000 players - 400 players = woopedy dang doo.
One of the biggest reasons so few people are actually into PvP is this elitist, smug attitude that many of the PvPers have about people who don't like PvP. Calling people carebears invites others to call you a unimaginative sociopath. And really, if the only thing you can do in a game to have fun is PvP, then I really have to question who the idiot is.
Maybe if more PvPers weren't inclined to act like the punk whose register you avoid at McDonald's to avoid his zit-encrusted hands touching your food, you might see fewer "carebears" and more players.
Leana_Txorana
Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:44 pm
#31
If you choose to be a master pilot you choose to exposed to PvP.
JimerLins
Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:50 pm
#32
Leana_Txorana wrote:If you choose to be a master pilot you choose to exposed to PvP.
The point that's being made, which so many people consistently ignore, is that this is a crap requirement that fosters nothing but griefing. People should not be forced to PvP to master a profession in this game; the devs have consistently said that PvP in this game is consensual and that you don't have to participate in PvP to access content (aside from Jedi).
And this isn't Jedi. It's a core mechanic, an integral part of the SW universe. Pilots are a core piece of the SW mythos, and as such, if the game provides a Pilot profession, having a gate on mastering that profession that requires you to fend off gankers with nothing but time on their hands and self-esteem issues to work out is total, complete and unmitigated idiocy. And nothing- NOTHING- I have seen from the pro-forced PVP crowd has even come close to changing my mind on that.
SupaPook
Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:54 pm
#33
Heres the difference between PvPer (or to be more specific, people who play PvE, but also enjoy PvP) and PvE (People who attempt to avoid PvP altogethor).
This game is an MMORPG.
Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game.
While the role playing part has pretty much died by the wayside due to the mainstream attractiveness of this game, it is STILL a massive multiplayer game.
The devs encourage social interaction in this game. Situations like this are an example.
People are getting mad because GROUPS of people are stopping SOLO people from completing their missions.
This is it. Master level missions. The be all and end all of Space Professions. Its a REWARD, not a priviledge. You get that xp, you go there, and you have to PUT in the WORK.
Fundamentally, how is it different from an uber level mob? Its not. If you went in there, and there were that many uber level mobs instead of people, you would go get a group, to complete the mission.
Simply because its PCs not NPC's, people are getting mad. Do you think if they removed the mission from Kessel or made it not nonconsentual pvp, that it would stay at that difficulty level? No, they would drastically increase the difficulty level.
People are failing to realize one very important issue.
This expansion has not even been out ONE MONTH, and people are whining because the LAST mission has problems. They want to keep this game going, keep people interested. To do that, they WILL stretch out the game for people, and frankly, I applaud them for it. Look at the names of the people posting about the pvp. Track their posts. In a month or so, they will be whining because now that they are Master, there is nothing for them to do.
Long story short, there's 2 sides to every opinion. Failure to recognize my argument as a valid point, is indicative of your shallowness as a player. A carebear, as it were.
You say those people are Gank squads? I say I salute them for co-ordinating 15 people to add some content to a section of space. Go get some people and do the same to them. Or, as I have ALREADY said, go at times when there WONT be 15 people roaming around. We've already established in multiple threads in this section that Master pilots dont have any real advantage over 4 4 4 4 pilots, so the problem here is your expecting a basic walk through for the LAST mission in the EXPANSION one MONTH after its release.
This expansion has breathed life into the hard core gamers, the people who will keep this game going. To pander to the needs of casual players, players who dont want to do anything except push the "Push to Win" button, kills games.
Honestly people, your expecting a persistent world MMORPG game to act like the console game you rent from blockbuster for a week, beat, and then return, never to see it again.
Thats not the way this game works. If you cant handle how the game works, go play carebear games like Everquest and WoW.
JimerLins
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:03 pm
#34
SupaPook:
I'm not interested in what you think is worthy of respect. I really, fundamentally, don't care what you think should be required for me to advance in the game. You know why? Because I don't need your respect or really care if I get it- I get plenty of respect for my accomplishments in my real life, and don't see any need to comport myself to the way you think people should play.
Get it through your head- just because someone has a playstyle different than yours, gives you NO RIGHT to expect that they should have to do things your way in order to get something in the game. Unless you're willing to put a requirement in for adjudicated roleplaying to acheive a profession mastery for all players, you're out of line. And since none of you little sociopaths (my term for anyone who uses the word "carebear") want to RP, you'd pitch a fit of whining that'd be a sight to behold if something like that were instituted.
Personally, I'd love to see forced RP to get something in the game. If you want respect, you should be willing to master all the aspects of the profession, right? And I'd love to be sitting on the adjudication team and vetoing everyone just because it would make me feel powerful to take something away from other players.
That's the big difference between the "carebear" and "sociopath" playstyle. Your style involves keeping other people from doing something or acheiving a goal they have. The other players aren't interested in keeping people from their goals. That's the big difference. PvP, when done correctly, is fun and rewarding. You want something that lets you feel better by keeping people from doing something. That's it.
I'm not interested in what you think is worthy of respect. I really, fundamentally, don't care what you think should be required for me to advance in the game. You know why? Because I don't need your respect or really care if I get it- I get plenty of respect for my accomplishments in my real life, and don't see any need to comport myself to the way you think people should play.
Get it through your head- just because someone has a playstyle different than yours, gives you NO RIGHT to expect that they should have to do things your way in order to get something in the game. Unless you're willing to put a requirement in for adjudicated roleplaying to acheive a profession mastery for all players, you're out of line. And since none of you little sociopaths (my term for anyone who uses the word "carebear") want to RP, you'd pitch a fit of whining that'd be a sight to behold if something like that were instituted.
Personally, I'd love to see forced RP to get something in the game. If you want respect, you should be willing to master all the aspects of the profession, right? And I'd love to be sitting on the adjudication team and vetoing everyone just because it would make me feel powerful to take something away from other players.
That's the big difference between the "carebear" and "sociopath" playstyle. Your style involves keeping other people from doing something or acheiving a goal they have. The other players aren't interested in keeping people from their goals. That's the big difference. PvP, when done correctly, is fun and rewarding. You want something that lets you feel better by keeping people from doing something. That's it.
sirsri
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:07 pm
#35
There needs to be content for PvPers and content for non PvPers. Progression should not require PvP in pilot.
If you want to have prestige rankings from PvP and all that sure whatever, as long as I don't have to be part of it to play with the multipassenger ships.
Kessel is a dumb zone for PvP anyway. The ONLY reason I can see to PvP in kessel is to grief people on their last master missions.
If you want to have prestige rankings from PvP and all that sure whatever, as long as I don't have to be part of it to play with the multipassenger ships.
Kessel is a dumb zone for PvP anyway. The ONLY reason I can see to PvP in kessel is to grief people on their last master missions.
SupaPook
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:08 pm
#36
Jimer, you made it entirely too easy to reply to your post.
Quote time:
"Get it through your head- just because someone has a playstyle different than yours, gives you NO RIGHT to expect that they should have to do things your way in order to get something in the game."
There we go.
Right back at you.
Like I said, I have a right to my opinion as well in this game.
Also the numbers posted, about the 95 percent of people who dont pvp?
Check the astromech stats.
Its more like 45 percent of the game who is faction oriented, and participates in faction fighting.
Of that 45 percent, its been documented in the stats that they are about60 percent of the playtime.
So... just about half of the people in the game pvp, and they make up more than half of the play time.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Looks like I'm not in the minority. Keep in mind those are SOE numbers, not my numbers.
Unlike the carebears, I like to quote stats, not skewed numbers totally pulled from my orifice.
JimerLins
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:11 pm
#37
SupaPook:
Back at you. Are you willing to support a requirement for forced, adjudicated RP to master pilot? If not, then you're a hypocrite for wanting people to play in your style while being unwilling to adhere to theirs.
Back at you. Are you willing to support a requirement for forced, adjudicated RP to master pilot? If not, then you're a hypocrite for wanting people to play in your style while being unwilling to adhere to theirs.
JimerLins
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:16 pm
#38
SupaPook: Furthermore, I never quoted any statistics at you. I just said that you're wanting people to do something they don't want to and should not have to.
All you little sociopaths (my term for anyone who uses the word "carebears") are like that.
See, generalization and ad hominems are fun!
All you little sociopaths (my term for anyone who uses the word "carebears") are like that.
See, generalization and ad hominems are fun!
ShortTimer
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:19 pm
#39
I posted this in my own thread yesterday and I'm hoping to spread my poison so that things will change around here.
ShortTimer wrote:
Let me address some issues here:
“Master Pilot is a choice”
Yes and so is playing the game, but this argument completely misses the point. This argument misses the point because for some people Master Pilot IS NOT EVEN A CHOICE THEY CAN MAKE. It exists outside even the realm of possibility for, I’m guessing more than a few, casual players. MP is a blocked to them because of (what will surely become, with more and more people camping Kessel) the near impossibility involved in hunting down mobs in a PvP free fire zone. Not everyone has the time to play this game like a part time job and make thirty or forty friends to bring along with them. For the casual player MP is not even an option for them because of this.
This, in effect, makes MP a more difficult achievement than Jedi. Jedi takes a lot of time; Master Pilot takes a lot of friends. So the next time I see a MP running around I’ll know that they aren’t a mastah pilot, I’ll know they are a mastah of online l33t dood social skills.
The design philosophy from the start of SWG has been to allow for players to choose to pursue any profession they desire and to participate in consensual PvP. Master Pilot violates this design philosophy because those who would choose not to participate in PvP cannot become Master Pilots.
I also have an issue with the actual difficulty (not related to skill) and rational of the Master Level mission but I’ll get to that in a minute.
“MP should be an achievement.”
As I touched on briefly in the last part, not everyone has the time or the will to make this game a part time job. For someone who doesn’t play 20+ hours a week racking up 7.5 million XP is a HUGE achievement for them. I’m sure there are players who could pump that out in a day or so. Of course when you play 26 hours a day that’s going to happen.
Let’s take a page from real life here. Do you know what it takes in real life to be an ace? The last time I checked you become an Ace in the air force when you have 5 enemy kills… FIVE. Can you imagine if that were true in this game as well? Maybe that’s not such a bad idea actually. The dev’s could make three ways to the Master Box:
1.)Complete the two missions
2.)Acquire 7.5 million XP.
3.)Kill 5 enemy players without being shot down (or maybe allow being shot down depending on how hard that would actually make it).
Difficulty of the mission.
In real life the title Ace is the results of the skill and actions of a pilot. Certainly his wingman and his squadron help in this achievement but never the less it is rewarded to an INDIVIDUAL. The missions at the Rebel tier 4 and master level do not reflect individual achievement. They are the results of you having uber-l33t dood friends. Now I will admit the tier 4 missions I’m thinking of (the last two, well actually just the last one because I was able to cheese-ball my way through the second to last) may become solo-able once shipwrights start having access to better space materials and the best way to tweak equipment is found. (Before you bust on me for being a 4/4/4/4 Rebel pilot in one week you should know I didn’t work this last week either. Had work been an issue there would be no way that would have happened.)
Right now the last two Rebel master missions do NOT reflect individual skill or achievement. Going to Kessel and living through that experience pretty much requires a group now and it will only be a greater requirement in the future as more people enter that zone. Now I do think it would be possible to shoot down 30 tier 5’s (for the Rebel mission) on my lonesome if one or two shot PvP were not a factor.
Right now with my gear and piloting abilities I can take on about 8 to 12 tier 4’s at once, depending on what kind of ships are shooting at me (rear turrets are a killer). This is around my limit because at some point I am just crushed by the shear weight of numbers. Even Bruce Lee would get his but whupped if attacked in the open by a hundred guys at once. Without a large group of friends along there will be no way I can sink that Corvette on my own. As I stated earlier this is a problem for those who don’t make this game a part time job and have 30 uber-l33t-dood friends along to help them out. This also makes it so the box is not a symbol of individual accomplishment (which ace is in the real world) but a symbol of my social-networking skills.
Right now I am in a guild. If I remember correctly we have the largest player-run city on Corellia on our server. When I try and martial our forces to go do JTL stuff I’ll get about 5 to 7 other players. This is no where near the number I would need for Kessel. The guild I’m in isn’t small either, this just comes down to the logistics of the situation of people having outside lives.
Conclusion
The devs could make Master Pilot achievement accessible to all if they allowed for several routes to its achievement. My original suggestion shouldn’t be hard to implement while the 5 player kill route would take some time. Heck, I write the pseudo code they could use in the Admiral’s conversation (for Rebels) for master pilot.
void main()
{
…
…
object oPC = GetLastPCSpeaker;
if( (GetLocalInt(oPC, MasterMissionsComplete)) == 1) || (GetPCPilotXP(oPC, 7500000)) )
{
AwardMasterPilot(oPC);
}
…
…
}
There ya go dev’s I’ve written the code for ya. Now if that’s not player involvement I don’t know what is.
Message Edited by ShortTimer for formating issues.
Message Edited by ShortTimer on 11-08-2004 08:25 AM
