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Thread: What is the problem with PVP vs. PVE?
Slarus wrote:
Umm.. Slarus, I read your post the first time you posted it. There's no need tocopy and paste your post throughout the boards.
Doubtful since your still using fabricated thoeries to suit your facts.
Message Edited by IonControl on 11-08-2004 07:05 PM
PS I should add that if they DO require PvP, they should turn of decay timers, etc. If decay was less of an issue, I might PvP more. If it's required, I for sure want 0% decay. Remember, PvE is the lifeblood of SWG. JtL gave a transfusion to a dying game (just check the guild numbers when Pub 10 rolled out). You require PvP to master pilot and that transfusion will quickly fade. SWG's days are numbered if the devs don't stop trying to roll out more "minor" things instead of fixing some major issues (content, forced PvP, etc). They're got a great game on their hand but have focused on fluff at the expense of some real core issues (and I'm not talking about bringing in a Publish so you can get Boba Fett's armor. Please. Who cares about that beyond .01% of the population?). JtL was a major step in fixing that. If Master Pilot becomes too rare, many people will have to go back to the ground game and its *glaring* deficiencies (not much in JtL once you hit 4444 or master). SWG will slowly die. I'm still not convinced it'll be around long enough for a 2nd expansion. I kind of doubt it'll see 2006 to be honest... This isn't just gloom and doom. It's a fair assessment of what's going on. Pub 10 came VERY close to killing SWG (at least the MM part of MMORPG). JtL has been a MAJOR help. Required PvP for Mastery may undo all of that...
Message Edited by IonControl on 11-08-2004 07:15 PM
Uther27 wrote
Back to the point, that is not the case at all with SWG: JTL. For once in an MMO, we are all looking pretty much on the same ground. Strengths and weaknesses are given to each class of ship, with some ships being stronger than others. But it is still coming down to who gets the drop on who and/or who can outmaneuver the other. This is how it should be. Everyone has a basically equal chance to defend themselves from being attacked, or to attack others.
Also, the point about the free PVP I was talking about earlier was for factioned ships, you know the ones in the movies that were always attacking each other...
Assuming PVP ever becomes more than 1 hit, 2 hit, dead, then yes, in a fair fight the odds are more even. Well, at least they are based more on your skills as a pilot rather than FOTM templates and uber armor/weapons.
But, it's still not quite the same ground, with regards to the Master Missions. The people who were able to spend 12+ hours a day levelling had it much easier than even someone attempting the mission now, let alone someone coming in 6 months from now. They didn't have to deal with numerous other players attacking them. It's going to get progressively worse until it's next to impossible for anyone to reach Master Pilot. And it will have nothing to do with that person's skills. It will be entirely due to more and more people camping the hyper point....more and more people camping the corvette....and just plain more and more people in Kessel looking to PVP. It will get to the point where a person will never be able to form a group large enough to enter Kessel to beat both the NPC's for the mission and the players because there will be so many players there. And once the lasers and missles start flying no one will be able to take the time out to check if someone is doing the mission or looking to PVP.
The fact is, yes, many people are turned away from PVP due to the griefers. And whether it's "allowed" by the current rules of the game or not, camping hyper points is griefing. The rules don't say it, but they will. Such rules are changed all the time. And usually, that griefing comes with things like "I PWNED YOU NOOB!!!! I'M TEH UBERLEET!! U R A L0S3R!".
And, there are just simply people who find no fun in battling another player, for whatever reason. It just holds no interest for them. This is just a guess, but I believe games that are 100% PVP do not drawn nearly as many players as those that give players the option to PVP or not. SWG:AED and SWG:JTL are primarily PVE games. Virtually all of the content in the game can be done PVE, no PVP reuqired. PVP'ers can get their fill anytime they want, PVE'ers don't have to if they don't want to. It's the attraction of various different playstyles that brings people in.
But the master mission is trying to force a large number of the PVE'ers into a playstyle they don't want, and that simply isn't right. No one is denying PVP'ers their playstyle. Two space zones were created so that there is an easy way to find some good PVP action. That was a great idea on the Devs part. Anyone who wants to PVP, even just to try it out, can do so. But PVE'ers are forced to subject themselves to a playstyle they don't want. Having the PVE master missions in a PVP zone is a bad idea. It is much more likely to turn potential PVP'ers away when their first taste of it in JTL ends their mission which they just spent 3 hours on (1 hour getting a group together, 2 hours in the zone for the mission). Even if it wasn't due to a griefer, it's still not likely to make people want to try it out. You cannot force someone to try a playstyle they have little interest in and expect it to change their minds.
What is fun for some is no fun for others. What is a challenge to some is stupid and pointless to others. To some, PVP is stupid and pointless. They should not be forced to deal with it to gain a skill box.
IonControl wrote:
The problem is numbers. The Kessel mission is PvE AND PvP. I can get 10 guys up and go for the Corvette. We get there and, in addition to the formidable corvette and its escorts, we might have to fight a 20-person PvP gank squad. No matter how good we are, we're gonna lose that mission. Since there's decay involved, a 30-minute timer, a dog to wash, a wife to talk to, papers to grade, a car to change the oil in, etc, etc, etc we're just not interested in it. It's obvious from your post you like PvP and seem to be less interested in *understanding* our viewpoint than trying to deride it in a backhanded way. if the devs think PvP should be required, fine. If they think PvE should be required, fine. The problem (IMHO) is that they're both required at once. Try mastering pilot a month from now. And be sure to let me know when you do it so I can be in Kessel as "just another enemy out to get you". Yeah right.
Message Edited by IonControl on 11-08-2004 07:05 PM
So maybe you lose that day. No big deal. Come back and try another day, or at a different time. I've been to Kessel many times and not player did I find. I've been helping people do their master missions and we always have some people head in first to scout things out and assess the situation, then we either go for it if we think we can control the area, or we don't.
If you fixed the camping at entry points, diabled players from sending you /tells in Kessel so there's no you "You sucks MutherF'er", and had all ships labeled plainlyas just Tier 5 X-wing or Tie Fighter, so you can't distinguish between a player and an NPC would you still have a problem?
Uther27 wrote:
I have a feeling in the very near future that camping the entry is going to be fixed. But, why do I get the feeling that even if that is fixed, most of the people that are complaining right now are still going to be complaining then?
So back to my original question, if the Devs came up with a zone that was not PVP, but still had "super" NPCs running around that were basically the equivalent power level of players that had no outcome on the mission success one way or the other, but just got in the way you would have no problem. Even if they added a adjustment based on the current server population, to accurately reflect the current Kessel difficulty level.
I don't think that is the case. I think that there would still be just as much crying and carrying on as there currently is with the "forced" PVP. I also think that this is a new game with new rules that has been added to enhance an existing game that has some crappy rules. I think that there is no difference besides the quickness of conflict between fighting an NPC and fighting a player. Besides that the player might actually have a chance to figure out what is going on and fight back.
We should all evaluate what is really going on with this game and the reasons you feel the way you do. The old feelingsshould not apply to JTL.
That may be the case that they may fix the zone in point gankage, but that will never totally fix the problem.
The whole difference between PvE and PvP is intent and the willingness to go to any extreme to win over another.
I am a veteran of several MMO's, and in every one where there has been PvP, there has been players that will use every exploit and cheat they can discover to get an advantage over another player. In EQ, they have hacks that allow players to warp in on other players, show where everything and everyone is in a zone with what equipment they are wearing. They find spots where players zone in constantly, and camp those spots for easy kills. They know where certain spots are in zones where they can go, but others cannot and use it to pick off others with no risk to themselves.
I can go on and on.
With NPC's they do what they are programmed to do. They dont exploit or cheat.
This will always be the case.
Ducimus wrote:
>>I do not like the other extreme of allowing players to master a twitch profession without ever facing another player
You know there are "twitch" games that don't require PvP right? Twitch does not equate to PvP.
Yes but they all contain online PvP play now. And for most of them, that is the selling point of the game. (Unless there is some PvE only twitch game out I am not thinking of.)
>>These players are not interfering with your mission, they are part of your mission.
Acutally, they do interfere by the way they conduct themselves half the time. Hardcore Pkers looking for ANYTHING advantagous to maximize their chance to win, and minimize any chance of their ego getting bruised. Any exploit found, they'll use it to the fullest.
Ok, on behalf of the twitch gaming community, let me apologize for these idiots. When I am killed on PvP twitch, I am always prepared to acknowledge that someone got the better of me, and when I kill others, I never gloat. Sadly there are those who do not follow this code of conduct. Remember, you have the /addignore function.
From what i understand, some groups have taken to camping the entry point into kessel. Intresting that, happends in alot of games. I'll bet half of the people entering are dead or halfway dead before their screen is finished loading. If things such as that hold true, they are interferring in a very obtuse way.
Ok THAT is game breaking problem IMHO. That should be fixed.
I'm not worried about *now*. Chances are good I'll be able to master in a week or two (if my guildies will get on the stick and catch up w/ me). I'm talking about a month from now. Kessel will begin to fill up w/ PvP'ers. if you're the type of person who actually works for a living, there are only certain hours when you can play (for the most part) and they tend to be when everyone does too. If you can only hope on for an hour or two between 6 and 10pm, in a month it's gonna be one frustrating night after the other. Simple solution is to pull the Master mission out of Kessel. There now. That wasn't too hard was it?
Juusman wrote:
So maybe you lose that day. No big deal. Come back and try another day, or at a different time. I've been to Kessel many times and not player did I find. I've been helping people do their master missions and we always have some people head in first to scout things out and assess the situation, then we either go for it if we think we can control the area, or we don't.
If you fixed the camping at entry points, diabled players from sending you /tells in Kessel so there's no you "You sucks MutherF'er", and had all ships labeled plainlyas just Tier 5 X-wing or Tie Fighter, so you can't distinguish between a player and an NPC would you still have a problem?
So maybe you lose that day. No big deal. Come back and try another day, or at a different time. I've been to Kessel many times and not player did I find. I've been helping people do their master missions and we always have some people head in first to scout things out and assess the situation, then we either go for it if we think we can control the area, or we don't.
If you fixed the camping at entry points, diabled players from sending you /tells in Kessel so there's no you "You sucks MutherF'er", and had all ships labeled plainlyas just Tier 5 X-wing or Tie Fighter, so you can't distinguish between a player and an NPC would you still have a problem?
But if were in Dathomir, then you wouldn't have to do anything to players in Kessel. Dathomir has Tier 5 spawns so that's not new, it has gunboats that's not new, I know that putting Vettes for Master Missions in Dathomir is easier then making player changes to Kessel.
People fail this mission PvP or not, it is part of the game, the Vette hypers out you get anger and do it again, but absolutly nothing generates more "I hate JTL" then getting attacked in Kessel by players when you just want to do your mission.