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Thread: Petition: Keep the master pilot mission in Kessel!
Palad wrote:
These PVP master pilots have an elitest attitude, as the other guy said "I dont wanna see a bunch of master pilots". They want to feel l33t and stroke their egos. I got an idea, you dont wanna see master pilot? drop the title and stay at 4444. I am sure that is a good way to curb the pilot population. OHHH I see, YOU dont want to give up master pilot, but everyone else should? The truth is they dont care about fair PVP, they are very content with one shot kills and spawn camping, they want to feel l33t, not have honest competition. Sony, take a good look at who you are catering to, continue this and kiss your game goodbye cause most everyone will leave. Dont believe me? Look at shadowbane, look at the "awsome" success of lineage 2. Forced PVP is not for the majority of MMORPG players.
FYI.. I'm not a master pilot. I'm 3433.. but unlike you, I'm not scared to go to kessel, and I'm certainly not scared of having to do my master mission in a PvP zone. In fact, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to gathering a group of friends and working as a team to do this. So what if there are griefers waiting to take me out. I'll consider that as one more challenge that I have to overcome to get my mastery.
One thing I'm not going to do is sit around posting on the boards whining about howunfair it is to have to PvP. In my mind, if you're imp or rebel, you should be permanently overt in space. What's realy stupid is rebels and imps working together to take down MOB's.
Sure, 1 shot kills are lame, and so is camping, but these are things that can be fixed.. and they probably will be fixed. But that doesn't mean that the master mission should be moved out of the PvP zone, so whiners like you can figure out how to solo the AI.
Don't you get it? Some people don't like how everyone can grind out a mastery in a week. Some people don't like how this game is going down the drain because it's easier, faster, and more lucrative to play this game solo. Some people enjoy the fact that something is truly challenging for once, and cannot be done solo, or simply by beating the AI.
Juusman wrote:
FYI.. I'm not a master pilot. I'm 3433.. but unlike you, I'm not scared to go to kessel, and I'm certainly not scared of having to do my master mission in a PvP zone. In fact, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to gathering a group of friends and working as a team to do this. So what if there are griefers waiting to take me out. I'll consider that as one more challenge that I have to overcome to get my mastery.
Eh? You haven't even tried the missions yet? How can you even be defending them? Have you even been to Kessel yet?
One thing I'm not going to do is sit around posting on the boards whining about howunfair it is to have to PvP. In my mind, if you're imp or rebel, you should be permanently overt in space. What's realy stupid is rebels and imps working together to take down MOB's.
Instead you are posting that non-PVPers are whiners and that your PVP playstyle should be enforced on other players. How is this better?
Sure, 1 shot kills are lame, and so is camping, but these are things that can be fixed.. and they probably will be fixed. But that doesn't mean that the master mission should be moved out of the PvP zone, so whiners like you can figure out how to solo the AI.
Again: Difficulty or enforced grouping has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with these missions. Don't forget this while you are writing these arguments. There might be some people with the goal of having easier master missions arguing here, but that's not the core of the issue. The core is that an entire group (alarge one at that) has to submit to a playstyle they absolutely want nothing to do with. Center your arguments around this instead, and now defend the missions.
Don't you get it? Some people don't like how everyone can grind out a mastery in a week. Some people don't like how this game is going down the drain because it's easier, faster, and more lucrative to play this game solo. Some people enjoy the fact that something is truly challenging for once, and cannot be done solo, or simply by beating the AI.
First off: You are comparing the flaws and lack of balance we have in the ground game with the shoddy mission based skill development we have in JTL. Had the ground game been more balanced, had armor been nerfed, had buffs been nerfed, then we would have been at a more balanced difficulty level. No more soloing Nightsisters, no more solo groups, professions back to taking a few months to grind, etc. In JTL this is different. Since much of the progress is done through missions, they can't really stop our fast progress. They tried by keeping an XP-requirement for most of the skill boxes, but even that doesn't quite matter. In the ground game, our skill levels and equipment very much gate our XP grinding progress (well, it would if things worked properly). In space, our own "twitch" skills and the equipment decides how fast we get xp.
Second: Until you have actually tried these missions, I don't think you should state what you do about the missions. Most people would not be able to solo them even if they were just purePVE missions. And don't say things like "Some people enjoy the fact that something is truly challenging for once" until you have actually tried it, please.
Vicotnik wrote:
Juusman wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
/not sign
I love PVP and I love grouping (in fact, I absolutely HATE the idea of "Solo groups" and refuse to utilize them. Means I'm poor as dirt though), but please. Leave the PVP zones for PVP. There is no reason for these missions to be there. Not at all.
Can I ask all the /sign people something? Why on earth are you actually defending this?
I mean, it doesn't have to be in a PVP zone to be hard. It doesn't have to be in a PVP zone to enforce grouping. Both things can be done just as well with PVP.
Now let's take a look at what these missions do accomplish:
1. Creates a "gate" on how quick and how many people can master the profession. In a few months from now, it will probably be too hard to even do these missions. The population in Kessel can only grow over time, not shrink, so we have a rather odd situation where there's an artificial max population on the number of masters.
That's a good thing. I don't want to see everyone walking around with master pilot titles. I also don't want to see everyone flying around in YT 1300s, Nova Couriers, and Decimators. You kind of contradict yourself by saying that it will probably be too hard to do these missions, yet you also say that the population will grow over time.
I thinkplacing the mission in a PvPzone will slow down the number of masters, but not stop it because people and guildswill organize, group, and fight in order to get their missions done
How can you say that this is a good thing? The current setup only rewards the real powergamers and punishes the casual players. (And god help the poor UK people, they will never master at this rate!). It's NOT a contradiction to say that these missions will be too hard to do in a few months while saying that the population in Kessel can only grow. For here on out, the (average) population in Kessel CAN only grow, not shrink. Once that population reaches a certain critical mass, it will be next to impossible to do these missions.
Bullcrap.. I'm a casual gamer, and I don't see how this hinders my game experience. In my opinion it enhances my game experience because I know that my master pilot cert is rare and hard to do.. and not a simple matter offiguring out how to beat the AI. Who cares if the population of Kessel grows? You seem to think that everyone who gets master will automatically sit in Kessel to grief other players rather helping other people obtain their mastery? Why do you all have such a pessimistic negative attitude?
2. Creates even more animosity between PVP players and PVE players, these threads already show that. The fact is simple: These missions can't promote PVP. You can't get a PVEer to start PVPing because of it. As a matter of fact, if anything they will be more turned off by it.
So don't do the master mission then. This supports point 1) above.
No, it supports nothing. These missions can't do much good for the overall game, that's the simple fact.
It does a lot of good for the community by encouraging players to interact with each other instead of bloody well playing by themselves.
3. The missions actually encourage griefing, since there is now a legit way of ruining missions for other players.
One man's terrorist is another man's revolutionary. What you call griefing may be someone else's idea of fun. It's up to us to get organized and stay organized enough to pull this mission off. Obviously some people are getting it done. So can you, if you try.
Seriously: Read point 3 and what you said again. It doesn't matter that we can organize, it doesn't matter that it is possible to do these missions. It's completely irrelevant for the point. And what's that point? Well, the point is that thecurrent setup actually encourages griefing, there is a legit way of ruining missions for other players. That some people would find this fun is completely irrelevant (and slightly scary).
Your point 3 is crap. What you call griefing is someone else's challenge to overcome. How? By interacting with other players to achieve a common goal. That's called building a virtual community.. and working together to achieve a common goal.
4. Innocent PVPers who are in Kessel for some PVP fun will be considered as a "griefer" when they kill a non-PVPer doing the missions. This ties in with point 2, obviously.
This ties in with point 3) above.
No, this ties in with point 2. Innocent PVPers would not be out to grief people, but they would be considered griefers. It ties in with point 2 because this creates worse relationships between PVPers and PVEers.
Now tell me how you can defend all this? How can you defend this when it would work just as well without any PVP?
You mean PvE? Give me a break.. it's just a matter of time until someone figures out how to "beat" the mission AI solo, post on the boards and before we know it, everyone's flying around in their shiny new multi-passenger ships. No thanks.. I'll take my chances with how its now.
It's very possible to add random elements to a PVE mission. It's very possible to make PVE missions random enough so that people cannot write down exactly how to "beat" them. This is very possible, but maybe too much work for these developers. Heh.
Give me an example of ONE game with AI that you can't figure out a way to beat it? Until we can write programs that can think for themself, interpret player actions and counter them, I don't see this happening any time soon.
Still: How can you defend this? There is only problems caused by these missions, nothing good comes out of it.
I don't see what the problem is.. why don't you think of playing versus playersas just very intelligent AI? Oh no I have to play against another player? They're going to ruin my mission!!
Sirion1 wrote:
Wow, I am on my master mission. I have been to kessel. And it is virtually impossible now as there are pvp players killing me in 1 shot. If you havent tried this mission yet I suggest you dont start a petition. Or maybe you have stayed up 60 hours staright did master pilot since no one was in kessel at the time and now want no one else to become a master pilot....
I suggest everyone that hasnt even tried this mission yet to not comment.
I for one do not sign this plea for "SOE forces us to grief lets keep it that way"
Vicotnik wrote:
Juusman wrote:
FYI.. I'm not a master pilot. I'm 3433.. but unlike you, I'm not scared to go to kessel, and I'm certainly not scared of having to do my master mission in a PvP zone. In fact, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to gathering a group of friends and working as a team to do this. So what if there are griefers waiting to take me out. I'll consider that as one more challenge that I have to overcome to get my mastery.
Eh? You haven't even tried the missions yet? How can you even be defending them? Have you even been to Kessel yet?
Yes.. I have been to Kessel, and many times I've been there it was almost empty. Have you been there? And yes, I've been doing the mission because unlike you, I actually help other players. It's challenging, but not impossible given a decent group with decent ships and co-operation.
One thing I'm not going to do is sit around posting on the boards whining about howunfair it is to have to PvP. In my mind, if you're imp or rebel, you should be permanently overt in space. What's realy stupid is rebels and imps working together to take down MOB's.
Instead you are posting that non-PVPers are whiners and that your PVP playstyle should be enforced on other players. How is this better?
Why am I here? Because I'm sick of all you whiners who seem to be self-reinforcing the belief that this is something terrible for the game. In fact most players that I know - except for the people who like to solo - are looking forward to this and believe that it will enhance the game.
Sure, 1 shot kills are lame, and so is camping, but these are things that can be fixed.. and they probably will be fixed. But that doesn't mean that the master mission should be moved out of the PvP zone, so whiners like you can figure out how to solo the AI.
Again: Difficulty or enforced grouping has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with these missions. Don't forget this while you are writing these arguments. There might be some people with the goal of having easier master missions arguing here, but that's not the core of the issue. The core is that an entire group (alarge one at that) has to submit to a playstyle they absolutely want nothing to do with. Center your arguments around this instead, and now defend the missions.
Find.. there is an entire group of people who don't want to see a bunch of master pilots walking around after a week of grinding? That's the core of the issue to us. It makes master pilot something special. Can you get that through your thick skull? Most people I talk to like the fact that to be a master pilot and obtain the multi-player ships, you have to earn it.. by pitting your skills against other players.
Don't you get it? Some people don't like how everyone can grind out a mastery in a week. Some people don't like how this game is going down the drain because it's easier, faster, and more lucrative to play this game solo. Some people enjoy the fact that something is truly challenging for once, and cannot be done solo, or simply by beating the AI.
First off: You are comparing the flaws and lack of balance we have in the ground game with the shoddy mission based skill development we have in JTL. Had the ground game been more balanced, had armor been nerfed, had buffs been nerfed, then we would have been at a more balanced difficulty level. No more soloing Nightsisters, no more solo groups, professions back to taking a few months to grind, etc. In JTL this is different. Since much of the progress is done through missions, they can't really stop our fast progress. They tried by keeping an XP-requirement for most of the skill boxes, but even that doesn't quite matter. In the ground game, our skill levels and equipment very much gate our XP grinding progress (well, it would if things worked properly). In space, our own "twitch" skills and the equipment decides how fast we get xp.
That's exactly the point!! If the master pilot mission was just another AI mission everyone would grind it out in a week or two, and everyone would have their YT 1300, Nova Courier, or Decimator. Whoop di doo!! You got a YT 1300? Guess what? I got onetoo!! And people like you would be posting on the boards a day later whining about the lack of content in this game once you get master!
Second: Until you have actually tried these missions, I don't think you should state what you do about the missions. Most people would not be able to solo them even if they were just purePVE missions. And don't say things like "Some people enjoy the fact that something is truly challenging for once" until you have actually tried it, please.
I have tried the mission. It's damn hard, and I like it that way. I do believe that it would be possible to eventually figure out how to solo the mission. I already know people who've figured out how to solo Tier 3 and 4 missions, so I have no doubt that some genius with a lot of time would sit there and figure out what the AI is doing, and then how to beat it. We already hear of people taking down the ISD solo.. so how much more difficult would this mission be?
But sure enough, IF it was too difficult to solo, I'm sure there would be people posting on the board that they're quitting because "they are being forced" to play with other people. There's always someone out there who supposedly represents a whole group of people whose play style is being infringed upon. Cry me bleedin' river.
Juusman wrote:
How can you say that this is a good thing? The current setup only rewards the real powergamers and punishes the casual players. (And god help the poor UK people, they will never master at this rate!). It's NOT a contradiction to say that these missions will be too hard to do in a few months while saying that the population in Kessel can only grow. For here on out, the (average) population in Kessel CAN only grow, not shrink. Once that population reaches a certain critical mass, it will be next to impossible to do these missions.
Bullcrap.. I'm a casual gamer, and I don't see how this hinders my game experience. In my opinion it enhances my game experience because I know that my master pilot cert is rare and hard to do.. and not a simple matter offiguring out how to beat the AI. Who cares if the population of Kessel grows? You seem to think that everyone who gets master will automatically sit in Kessel to grief other players rather helping other people obtain their mastery? Why do you all have such a pessimistic negative attitude?
Not bullcrap. The current setup really only rewards the powergamers and screws with the casual players. Powergamers will have had much easier master missions than casual players can ever have. And now you are making assumptions too. Not once have I said that all masters will automatically sit in Kessel to grief, what I have said is that the population in Kessel can only rise, not lower. This is because Kessel is THE place for PVP combat in space, Deep Space is not really suitable for that.
I don't have a pessimistic, negative attitude. I have a realistic attitude. The reality is that people will go to Kessel to PVP, and could care less if their targets are there to PVP or not. The reality is that having these missions as strictly PVE missions would work just as well as the current missions.
So don't do the master mission then. This supports point 1) above.
No, it supports nothing. These missions can't do much good for the overall game, that's the simple fact.
It does a lot of good for the community by encouraging players to interact with each other instead of bloody well playing by themselves.
But it doesn't actually even do that! The PVE part of the mission does, not the PVP part.
One man's terrorist is another man's revolutionary. What you call griefing may be someone else's idea of fun. It's up to us to get organized and stay organized enough to pull this mission off. Obviously some people are getting it done. So can you, if you try.
Seriously: Read point 3 and what you said again. It doesn't matter that we can organize, it doesn't matter that it is possible to do these missions. It's completely irrelevant for the point. And what's that point? Well, the point is that thecurrent setup actually encourages griefing, there is a legit way of ruining missions for other players. That some people would find this fun is completely irrelevant (and slightly scary).
Your point 3 is crap. What you call griefing is someone else's challenge to overcome. How? By interacting with other players to achieve a common goal. That's called building a virtual community.. and working together to achieve a common goal.
Again: Read the point again. The current setup encourages griefing, since it gives us a legit way of ruining mission progress. The fact that some people would see this as a challenge does nothing to take away from the point that these missions actually encourages griefing and makes it legit.
You mean PvE? Give me a break.. it's just a matter of time until someone figures out how to "beat" the mission AI solo, post on the boards and before we know it, everyone's flying around in their shiny new multi-passenger ships. No thanks.. I'll take my chances with how its now.
It's very possible to add random elements to a PVE mission. It's very possible to make PVE missions random enough so that people cannot write down exactly how to "beat" them. This is very possible, but maybe too much work for these developers. Heh.
Give me an example of ONE game with AI that you can't figure out a way to beat it? Until we can write programs that can think for themself, interpret player actions and counter them, I don't see this happening any time soon.
No, we can never make AI that can make decisions. However, it is very possible to make AI with a large number of random variables that creates a bit of a random element in it. Also, it's very possible to make NPC missions dynamic, they don't need to spawn exactly the same everytime. It's very possible to add random elements here too. The fact that the SWG devs might be entirely too lazy for this is completely besides the point. And as for AI that I can't beatin games? A few Chess games comes to mind.
Still: How can you defend this? There is only problems caused by these missions, nothing good comes out of it.
I don't see what the problem is.. why don't you think of playing versus playersas just very intelligent AI? Oh no I have to play against another player? They're going to ruin my mission!!
But THAT IS the problem. Not everyone likes PVP, not everyone want's anything to do with PVP. This is what you fail to see. The missions pretty much forces people to go into a playstyle they want absolutely nothing to do with. What good can come out of this?
These missions are a lot like the hologrind, but these missions you can't AFK-macro your way through, and they are not really optional either.
Juusman wrote:
Eh? You haven't even tried the missions yet? How can you even be defending them? Have you even been to Kessel yet?
Yes.. I have been to Kessel, and many times I've been there it was almost empty. Have you been there? And yes, I've been doing the mission because unlike you, I actually help other players. It's challenging, but not impossible given a decent group with decent ships and co-operation.
I have done these missions, I have first hand experience from them. Why do you think I am here arguing? It's not because I feel like it, it's because I see the flaws with the missions. Don't make assumptions, it's not a good idea. Especially when you know nothing about what you are assuming. Kessel is almost empty now, but the game has just been out a little over a week. Things will change, and this is why I keep saying that the population in Kessel can only rise. With each person that population rises, so does the challenge level of the Kessel missions. So that is why powergamers gets rewarded and casual players gets screwed.
Instead you are posting that non-PVPers are whiners and that your PVP playstyle should be enforced on other players. How is this better?
Why am I here? Because I'm sick of all you whiners who seem to be self-reinforcing the belief that this is something terrible for the game. In fact most players that I know - except for the people who like to solo - are looking forward to this and believe that it will enhance the game.
Again: You are making completely biased assumptions. You are making opiniated statements. I am here arguing not for myself, I can do these missions, I will do them two times more, I am here arguing because they only hurt the game when you look at the big picture. The fact that most players you know are looking forward to this means nothing, we surround ourselves with the people we are most similar.
Again: Difficulty or enforced grouping has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with these missions. Don't forget this while you are writing these arguments. There might be some people with the goal of having easier master missions arguing here, but that's not the core of the issue. The core is that an entire group (alarge one at that) has to submit to a playstyle they absolutely want nothing to do with. Center your arguments around this instead, and now defend the missions.
Find.. there is an entire group of people who don't want to see a bunch of master pilots walking around after a week of grinding? That's the core of the issue to us. It makes master pilot something special. Can you get that through your thick skull? Most people I talk to like the fact that to be a master pilot and obtain the multi-player ships, you have to earn it.. by pitting your skills against other players.
Stop making insults, that won't gain you anything in an argument. You will just be ridiculed.
What you absolutely fail to see is that it doesn't actually make master pilot special. That is an opinion, nota fact. The notion that something "means" something is completely personal. While being a master pilot might be special to you or me, for someone who hates PVP it doesn't actually "mean" anything. So in effect, you can't "earn" it through PVP.
First off: You are comparing the flaws and lack of balance we have in the ground game with the shoddy mission based skill development we have in JTL. Had the ground game been more balanced, had armor been nerfed, had buffs been nerfed, then we would have been at a more balanced difficulty level. No more soloing Nightsisters, no more solo groups, professions back to taking a few months to grind, etc. In JTL this is different. Since much of the progress is done through missions, they can't really stop our fast progress. They tried by keeping an XP-requirement for most of the skill boxes, but even that doesn't quite matter. In the ground game, our skill levels and equipment very much gate our XP grinding progress (well, it would if things worked properly). In space, our own "twitch" skills and the equipment decides how fast we get xp.
That's exactly the point!! If the master pilot mission was just another AI mission everyone would grind it out in a week or two, and everyone would have their YT 1300, Nova Courier, or Decimator. Whoop di doo!! You got a YT 1300? Guess what? I got onetoo!! And people like you would be posting on the boards a day later whining about the lack of content in this game once you get master!
That's not even a point! If that was the point, how can you explain that we already have master pilots? No, these missions don't work as to slow down the master progress. What it does is to let the first batch of master pilots in, and creates a gate for all the following. How can that be acceptable if the point is to slow the progress to master pilot down?
People are already "whining" about the lack of content, people were already "whining" about the lack of content in beta.
Second: Until you have actually tried these missions, I don't think you should state what you do about the missions. Most people would not be able to solo them even if they were just purePVE missions. And don't say things like "Some people enjoy the fact that something is truly challenging for once" until you have actually tried it, please.
I have tried the mission. It's damn hard, and I like it that way. I do believe that it would be possible to eventually figure out how to solo the mission. I already know people who've figured out how to solo Tier 3 and 4 missions, so I have no doubt that some genius with a lot of time would sit there and figure out what the AI is doing, and then how to beat it. We already hear of people taking down the ISD solo.. so how much more difficult would this mission be?
Much more difficult. The ISD is like a little puppy compared to the escorts of the gunboats. Anyone can solo the ISD with a little patience.However, in the ISD zone PVP IS supposed to be the real difficulty, not in these missions. And that's completely ok for the ISD since it's optional content. And no, you haven't truly tried the missions (and there's two, not just one mission). The Corvette mission is actually the one of the two missions that's less frustrating and that does not suffer the most from the PVP part. The first mission is, but that's pretty much a solo mission, so you obviously haven't even tried it yet.
But sure enough, IF it was too difficult to solo, I'm sure there would be people posting on the board that they're quitting because "they are being forced" to play with other people. There's always someone out there who supposedly represents a whole group of people whose play style is being infringed upon. Cry me bleedin' river.
Now you are just being cute. PVE players are the majority, don't kid yourself into thinking that they are not. So yes, we DO represent a large group of people for our arguments against these missions.