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Thread: Kessel is just a symptom of the developers pov on PvP.
Message Edited by DND_Cas on 11-10-2004 02:04 PM
hrmpf2 wrote:
DND, I see your point, and it's actually a good oneYou're not asking for "free kills", easy PvE targets, but you want PvP to have an impact on the game, hope that's correct.
The question then is, how do you make PvP impact the game, yet not annoy PvE'ers with it? As you had it with Kessel, numerous threads and replies here will witness it didn't work, PvE'ers did get in the line of fire, and they didn't like it. With the current (c)overt system, you don't feel that impacts the general play, I agree it doesn't, or does it? I certainly influences the economy, on ground DoT weapons are a giant hit, PvE'ers find these and supply them the PvP'ers, as they are usually useless in PvE. In this way PvP'ers matters, most likely not as much as you'd like, but still, some 300 mind fire knife is useless in PvE, happy the one who find and sells it to a PvP'er.
PvP and PvE are two very different things, however, as it currently is, no PvP'er can go without the PvE'ers, yet it works the other way around. As you can see from various PvP oriented threads, the two worlds are very different, while an AS may be happy they just made something as "boring" as a 11 point experimented chest plate, PvP'ers will usually remember the great battle or fun duel. These things simply can't be combined, the system in Kessel obviously didn't do it, and I think you'll always come up with an oil and water situation when trying. How do you propose the two be combined? How would you make PvE'ers "dependent" on PvP'ers and still keep both parties happy?
Firstly thanks
I do think your looking at it the wrong way tho.
- A pure crafter, like aweaponsmith,will get the best resourcesand be happy getting the best stats he/she can from the resources and components they have.
- A pure pve combat character, like a rifleman/ranger, would probably have more fun looting a pair of +12 weaponsmith experimentation boots that they could sell or collecting some great hide.
Both of these are pve and have thier niche in the market. You could argue these two are like oil and water and yet they are both dependent on each other and constitute having a relationship.
Simply put people need to lose the attitude of PvE'ers and PvP'ers can't interact. They can mix & interact - its just not in a combat situation. Thats one situation out of many and we can use the others to create a niche for the PvP'ers.
Good luck convincing artisans, the totally non combat profession that PvPers should be able to play the middle man between them and resources.
TheMDude wrote:
Yeah.
Good luck convincing artisans, the totally non combat profession that PvPers should be able to play the middle man between them and resources.
) in neutral pilot tree. If they didn't succeed player bounties could be made and picked up by BHs. Ideas like this has been posted in the smuggler forum, and in general they're liked, it's also something I'd be willing to risk PvP for, but it wouldn't stand in the way of me achieving master.
DND_Cas wrote:Some of thier resources just like they get some of thier components from pve combatants.Fact is PvP'ers are dependent on crafters - why shouldn't crafters be dependent to some extent on PvP'ers?
Crafters can be totally independant though. They don't have to buy items from PvE'ers they can grab novice scout themselves and pick up a combat profession to gank the besties. They use PvE'ers for easier collection or so they can focus totally on crafting or mass production. To the same point high end crafters depend on PvP'ers to a point, usually the highest end resources (Loot) drop off some nasty stuff in game, the best for getting that stuff is PvP'ers as there builds/templates are usually geared solely towards combat. So to a point they do depend on PvP'ers even though they are PvEing they are using their PvP skill set to achive it.
The hard part in the game is to find a system that rewards PvP play, not to nessaraly to make PvP intgral to the game. This game is geared towards PvE and I don't think that can be changed as it is a core design element. They have to reward people for PvPing as it stand right now the is little to no reward (I don't count faction points as you can get that easier by doing missions). I am not sure how to reward PvP play but I do think it is something the Dev's need to look into and impliment as it stands now PvP is bragging rights only.
Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:
I'm sorry, I keep saying it over and over again... this is an RPG, not a FPS. PvP is NOT going to be the main concern or focus.
It should be there, but it should be completely optional. If you're all about PvP, then RPG's probably aren't your game. Go hit up some CounterStrike.
I do agree that some kind of benefit should be given to the PvP'ers, so there is something they can actually earn through fighting other players... but sorry, when it comes right down to it, this is an RPG, not a FPS.
God, I love this game and all, but the more and more I read on these forums, the more and more City of Heroes becomes the epitome of how to run an MMORPG correctly.
DND_Cas wrote:
Correct - you can still play PvP in the zone. Just hit a Faction Space Station and declare...
You don't understand what you did with the Master Mission with Kessel do you TH?
For the first time in this game you gave PvP a purpose.
Instead of going to a random place just to look for a fight we had a reason to want to fight in Kessel. Some people wanted to get thier master pilot certifications and the opposition wanted to stop that from happening. The one thing that is sorely missing from the ground game, and thatthe PvP comminityhas been complaining about for months and months and months, youhad in space and have taken away. (Now making the Master Level cert the thing to fight over was never smart but it was at least (finally) a reason to fight).
It occurs to me that you, personally,don't understand PvP at all because if you did you never would have written such auninformed answer about the needs and wants of your PvP community.
Let me explain to you want the PvP community wants:
- A purpose
In every other aspect of the game classes andcommunities aredependent on each other for comodities and support - in other words interdependency. Every single community except one - PvP'ers. We take but at no point can we ever give back to the community. For one brief moment PvP'ers finally became part of the larger community - they we're needed -before you shelved them again.
Let me explain to you want the PvP community does not want:
- To have to search endlessly for PvP that has no meaning.
- To have pointless base wars (aka deepspace)
In other words we don't want to hang around starports or oppositely aligned space stations waiting for other PvP'ers to turn up and have a 2 minuite lightfight with them. We would prefer to hang around bases that PvE'ers and crafters wanted protected or fighting opposite faction ships for commodities for our crafters.
If you think things like deepspace make PvP then you are very mistaken. Its the whole "you sunk my battleship" syndrome - i.e. no-one cares. We've nothing invested in it and it'll respawn the next day anyway.
In other words what PvP'ers do not want is to be seperate from the rest of the game whilst PvP'ing.
Until we are a needed commodity we are simply gankers to most hardcore PvE'ers - this is not what we want. When other players need PvP'ers we cease to become simply gankers and starport loiterers and start to become people they want to know and people they need for certain things.
To conclude - please stop seperating PvP from the rest of the game and playstyles. If you want true interdepency in SWG you will give PvP'ers a purpose.
DND_Cas wrote:
Instead of going to a random place just to look for a fight we had a reason to want to fight in Kessel. Some people wanted to get thier master pilot certifications and the opposition wanted to stop that from happening. The one thing that is sorely missing from the ground game, and thatthe PvP comminityhas been complaining about for months and months and months, youhad in space and have taken away. (Now making the Master Level cert the thing to fight over was never smart but it was at least (finally) a reason to fight).
Sorry, the only "purpose" PVPers had here was to "gank" players uninterested in PVP. One community preying on another. In my experience the vast majority of these players also went about this by dubious means, ie camping spawn-points, which further changes the situation from a Competition into a Grief scenario.
So with this established, I'll refer to these PVPers simply as griefers.
The argument that these griefers frequently sets forth is that the Master-missions and PVP in general is supposed to be difficult. I wholeheartedly agree with this. Absolutely. I don't wantmy helmet if it's meaningless, and I think that the majority of the playerbase feels the same way. Unfortunately, the mechanisms of PVP just don't hold up. To be honest, PVP is *not* difficult. It's a one-shot contest, and almost always finished at the merge. We also show up on each other's radar at maximum range, so there's no element of surprise or stealth. Combatants line up and shoot. Whoever shoots first and shoots straightest wins. I myself have done this time and again, and have given out more than I've received. Simply put, PVP is *easy.* Completing the Corvette mission is not. Using PVP to screw with a Corvette mission is *ridiculously* easy. Countering PVP whilst completing the mission is vastly more difficult, if not impossible altogether. Therefore, the griefer is playing with hypocrisy by claiming that his "efforts" are in the spirit of making things difficult.
The other flaw in this argument lies with one particular faction, who seems most prevalent in the PVP-arena: the Empire. With the exception of the TIE Bomber, their ships are balanced out in PVE by having less mass and weapons, but more speed, agility and a reduced target profile. This is fine. Unfortunately, their reduced weaponry is more than enough to one or two-shot other factioned ships, meaning there's no "reduction" per-se at all. Their agility and profileon the other hand,are valuable assets. And finally, to compound this even further, the difficulty of the Imperial Corvette mission is laughable. I've watched bomb-stricken Corvettemissions, and I've participated in a Freelance/Rebel missions, and there's no comparing the two. Therefore, Imperials have a tactical PVP advantage *and*a simple Master mission, and therefore more potentially unskilled but capable griefers andmasters. Therefore, the Imperial perspective on what is difficult or not is skewed and unrealistic, if not entirelyridiculous.
I sincerely hope that some of the issues that required Kessel to become PVE can be worked out, and it can be returned to a PVP-content zone. I look forward to and enjoy challenging pvp competitions, but simply put, that doesn't exist today. Allowing a flawed-PVP system to cripple an otherwise robust PVE community was completely unacceptable, and warranted the change.
-Zz
DND_Cas wrote:
For the first time in this game you gave PvP a purpose.
Instead of going to a random place just to look for a fight we had a reason to want to fight in Kessel....