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Phazorn wrote:

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Hedd wrote:
/bow

Thank you...thank you. One only asks for a challenge, not a slaughter.

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yes, let us sacrifice any tiny bit of realism for your pleasure

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Depends your definition of realism. The Millenium Falcon was taking direct rear deflector shots from Destroyer turrets for a good 3-5 minutes before the hyperspace engaged. PvP? 2 Hits dead. Any ship. If your idea of realism consists of a F-16 Hornet...perhaps your playing the wrong game

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truewildman wrote:

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Joukahainen wrote:

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Phazorn wrote:

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Hedd wrote:
/bow

Thank you...thank you. One only asks for a challenge, not a slaughter.

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yes, let us sacrifice any tiny bit of realism for your pleasure

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Ok, let's do it your way and throw out the possibility of using any ship other than a small fighter for PvP. Wouldn't you rather see a variety of ships entering into PvP? I know many people would like to take a MP ship in and have a full crew manning turrets and doing repairs and such.

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Anyone who has an RP thought of battle knows that you do not take a heavy ship solo into battle. It must be accompanied by fighters.

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Then why would any military build larger ships with turrets? Besides, did I say solo? I just said that I'd like to see more of a variety of ships getting involved. Who cares about realism. If I wanted realism I wouldn't be playing a Star Wars game.

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truewildman wrote:

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Joukahainen wrote:

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Phazorn wrote:

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Hedd wrote:
/bow

Thank you...thank you. One only asks for a challenge, not a slaughter.

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yes, let us sacrifice any tiny bit of realism for your pleasure

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Ok, let's do it your way and throw out the possibility of using any ship other than a small fighter for PvP. Wouldn't you rather see a variety of ships entering into PvP? I know many people would like to take a MP ship in and have a full crew manning turrets and doing repairs and such.

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Anyone who has an RP thought of battle knows that you do not take a heavy ship solo into battle. It must be accompanied by fighters.

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All heavy carriers are supported by fast fighters as a tactical assault, RP aside. The "tank" provides distraction as the enemy ship fires at its higher durability shields and armor allowing the faster ships behind it to attack. On the flip side if the enemy craft is distracted by the faster ships, it allows the heavier unit to circle and unleash it's heavier guns upon the distracted target.

in the current pvp setup, neither apply. B-wing tank or Z95, dead 2 hits

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meeuki wrote:

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Joukahainen wrote:
Hopefully they make smaller changes at first and see how it goes. I think however that if there is a damage reduction the smaller more agile ships will still have an advantage. They will be able to get behind a bigger ship and the bigger ship won't be able to get a shot in. Most likely the only way a bigger ship will be able to take on a small agile fighter is with turrets.

I should add... This is a theory. haha

Message Edited by Joukahainen on 11-10-2004 09:25 AM

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the thing is though, it SHOULD be that way. if i fly against you in my interceptor, and you are in my bomber, there's really no reason you should win, unless i make a critical tatical error. now, that being said, if i'm in my interceptor and you are in your agressor, i should still win, again, unless i make a tactical error (imo a tactical error includes getting hit by the aggressor's more powerful guns), OR you have a turret.

right now that's not exactly what is going on, so in that regard i do believe something needs to be changed. there's no real reason i should get the drop on a decimator and waste him in 4 hits. it's just a very VERY fine line and if the developers f it up like they do with numerous things in this game, you'll see rediculous dogfights and the inability of a skilled pilot to overcome even mediocre odds.

right now it's all about the fast ship. 1 fast ship can take on any number of unskilled players. if the reduction gets screwed up too much, 2 on one, even with a good pilot solo will become much more difficult. i don't think people who suck at flying should be rewarded, but then again i also don't think one wrong move should instantly spell death. you should have the chance to screw up... maybe three times.

there's also balance issues to consider, what happens when imperials throw in shield droid buffs in their faster ships? what happens when large mass rebel ships get shield buffed under a damage reduction system? what happens with engineered shields in 5 months?

if they are going to do it, it's a mechanic that needs to be TESTED and i mean really tested not just halfassed tested, it needs to be looked at for weeks on test center, tweaked, looked at again, tweaked, people need to be given the best possible shields, the best possible guns, the best possible ships and it needs to be looked at and tweaked. then they need horrible components made available and have it tweaked again.

i don't think ANY of that will be done if they put it in.

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I can't figure out if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing. lol. Looks to me like you agree with what I said.

Message Edited by Joukahainen on 11-10-2004 10:01 AM

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Joukahainen wrote:

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meeuki wrote:

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Joukahainen wrote:
Hopefully they make smaller changes at first and see how it goes. I think however that if there is a damage reduction the smaller more agile ships will still have an advantage. They will be able to get behind a bigger ship and the bigger ship won't be able to get a shot in. Most likely the only way a bigger ship will be able to take on a small agile fighter is with turrets.

I should add... This is a theory. haha

Message Edited by Joukahainen on 11-10-2004 09:25 AM

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the thing is though, it SHOULD be that way. if i fly against you in my interceptor, and you are in my bomber, there's really no reason you should win, unless i make a critical tatical error. now, that being said, if i'm in my interceptor and you are in your agressor, i should still win, again, unless i make a tactical error (imo a tactical error includes getting hit by the aggressor's more powerful guns), OR you have a turret.

right now that's not exactly what is going on, so in that regard i do believe something needs to be changed. there's no real reason i should get the drop on a decimator and waste him in 4 hits. it's just a very VERY fine line and if the developers f it up like they do with numerous things in this game, you'll see rediculous dogfights and the inability of a skilled pilot to overcome even mediocre odds.

right now it's all about the fast ship. 1 fast ship can take on any number of unskilled players. if the reduction gets screwed up too much, 2 on one, even with a good pilot solo will become much more difficult. i don't think people who suck at flying should be rewarded, but then again i also don't think one wrong move should instantly spell death. you should have the chance to screw up... maybe three times.

there's also balance issues to consider, what happens when imperials throw in shield droid buffs in their faster ships? what happens when large mass rebel ships get shield buffed under a damage reduction system? what happens with engineered shields in 5 months?

if they are going to do it, it's a mechanic that needs to be TESTED and i mean really tested not just halfassed tested, it needs to be looked at for weeks on test center, tweaked, looked at again, tweaked, people need to be given the best possible shields, the best possible guns, the best possible ships and it needs to be looked at and tweaked. then they need horrible components made available and have it tweaked again.

i don't think ANY of that will be done if they put it in.

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I can't figure out if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing. lol. Looks to me like you agree with what I said.

Message Edited by Joukahainen on 11-10-2004 10:01 AM

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i'm agreeing this will happen, but you made it seem like that was a bad thing, and i disagree. you can't get away from the advantage a fast turning craft has in a dogfight, there's just no escaping that. it's not so much realism as a neccessary game mechanic. it's one easily countered though, as large ships have their place in combat, as do small ships.

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meeuki wrote:

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Joukahainen wrote:

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meeuki wrote:

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Joukahainen wrote:
Hopefully they make smaller changes at first and see how it goes. I think however that if there is a damage reduction the smaller more agile ships will still have an advantage. They will be able to get behind a bigger ship and the bigger ship won't be able to get a shot in. Most likely the only way a bigger ship will be able to take on a small agile fighter is with turrets.

I should add... This is a theory. haha

Message Edited by Joukahainen on 11-10-2004 09:25 AM

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the thing is though, it SHOULD be that way. if i fly against you in my interceptor, and you are in my bomber, there's really no reason you should win, unless i make a critical tatical error. now, that being said, if i'm in my interceptor and you are in your agressor, i should still win, again, unless i make a tactical error (imo a tactical error includes getting hit by the aggressor's more powerful guns), OR you have a turret.

right now that's not exactly what is going on, so in that regard i do believe something needs to be changed. there's no real reason i should get the drop on a decimator and waste him in 4 hits. it's just a very VERY fine line and if the developers f it up like they do with numerous things in this game, you'll see rediculous dogfights and the inability of a skilled pilot to overcome even mediocre odds.

right now it's all about the fast ship. 1 fast ship can take on any number of unskilled players. if the reduction gets screwed up too much, 2 on one, even with a good pilot solo will become much more difficult. i don't think people who suck at flying should be rewarded, but then again i also don't think one wrong move should instantly spell death. you should have the chance to screw up... maybe three times.

there's also balance issues to consider, what happens when imperials throw in shield droid buffs in their faster ships? what happens when large mass rebel ships get shield buffed under a damage reduction system? what happens with engineered shields in 5 months?

if they are going to do it, it's a mechanic that needs to be TESTED and i mean really tested not just halfassed tested, it needs to be looked at for weeks on test center, tweaked, looked at again, tweaked, people need to be given the best possible shields, the best possible guns, the best possible ships and it needs to be looked at and tweaked. then they need horrible components made available and have it tweaked again.

i don't think ANY of that will be done if they put it in.

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I can't figure out if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing. lol. Looks to me like you agree with what I said.

Message Edited by Joukahainen on 11-10-2004 10:01 AM

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i'm agreeing this will happen, but you made it seem like that was a bad thing, and i disagree. you can't get away from the advantage a fast turning craft has in a dogfight, there's just no escaping that. it's not so much realism as a neccessary game mechanic. it's one easily countered though, as large ships have their place in combat, as do small ships.

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Oh.. I see. No, I didn't mean it as a bad thing. I do think an agile fighter should have an advantage over a heavy fighter or fighter/bomber if he can avoid the larger ships weapons. I think it would be cool to be in a small fighter trying to dodge a Y-Wings turret while blasting him from behind.

This brings up another point I'd like to make. I'd like to see ANY ship have a chance in PVP if flown by a master pilot. Mass should be based on the role of a ship (ie: fighter, fighter/bomber, Heavy fighter, etc..). Not the tier level. An A-wing, Z95, Scyk, and Tie Fighter should all have similar mass. Obviously the upper tier ships should have a slight advantage due to technological advancements and low level pilots would still be limited by their component level certs. I just think it would be great to see a variety of ships getting involved in PvP.

i'd really like to see purpose behind the smaller fighters too. the problem is, a tie's purpose is in it's sheer numbers. i don't know how they could have a mechanic that would represent that. i suppose if it was a viable ship for pvp then people would use it, which would mean it might have numbers.

but yeah, it's my aim to pimp my interceptor and use that in pvp. if only the tie/ln had a bit more mass, i'd love to use it.

a z95 would be unstoppable though, it'd have to have it's yaw/pitch/roll bonus reduced.

i think you should get the chance to screw up twice.

i.e. we dogfight, i put a move on you and you fail to evade and you get hit with a burst. you evade, screw up again and die. or you evade, change your strategy and do something to win.

but i like the current system too. it's fast and really exciting. anyone who says pvp right now takes no skill get's crack rock cheap where they live, an advanced going up against a dune lizard or an awing with a great engine is alot of fun. it's not about who fires the first shot, because from 2000m out i'm jockeying for posisition, vieing for an angle. i've been in one on one battles where we danced around at 2000m for 30 or 40 seconds without firing a shot, because both of us knew the importance of getting their angles right. F@$# that's fun as hell. i don't think alot of people are really getting into it like that, or maybe they put too much stock in their ship getting exploded. if i die (it happens alot) i just rush right back out to the station. it only takes a few seconds then it's on again.

but i see how people in bigger ships feel slighted. it does need to be worked on.

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meeuki wrote:
i think you should get the chance to screw up twice.

i.e. we dogfight, i put a move on you and you fail to evade and you get hit with a burst. you evade, screw up again and die. or you evade, change your strategy and do something to win.

but i like the current system too. it's fast and really exciting. anyone who says pvp right now takes no skill get's crack rock cheap where they live, an advanced going up against a dune lizard or an awing with a great engine is alot of fun. it's not about who fires the first shot, because from 2000m out i'm jockeying for posisition, vieing for an angle. i've been in one on one battles where we danced around at 2000m for 30 or 40 seconds without firing a shot, because both of us knew the importance of getting their angles right. F@$# that's fun as hell. i don't think alot of people are really getting into it like that, or maybe they put too much stock in their ship getting exploded. if i die (it happens alot) i just rush right back out to the station. it only takes a few seconds then it's on again.

but i see how people in bigger ships feel slighted. it does need to be worked on.

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Well said. Anyone complaining about getting killed too quickly didn't see it coming for one reason or another. And that's the other player'sfault how?? (And I'm not talking about those preoccupied with the vette. That's a dead horse that needs no further beating.)