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Thread: What is the problem with PVP vs. PVE?
Ducimus
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:07 pm
#14
Uther27 wrote:PVP vs PVEI would love someone to enlighten me. What is with this division?
The difference is it's personal, or at the least, its taken personnally. I can remember the first time i ever got randomly PKed in an MMO. I was like, "holy schitt man, what did i ever do to you?"
Alot of people play to lose themselves in a fake world for a few hours, being PKed breaks their "harmony", and is often taken very personnally on a level outside of the game. Think about it, Its one thing for some crazy mob AI to go ballistic, but to have your stuff smacked around, damaged, or lost, by somebody being a jerk, and there being nothing you can do about it, is infuriating.
Personnaly i dont mind dying in PvP so long as there isnt any damage outside of a minor death penatly. But when it comes to a level where you incur any long term loss equipment duration, destroy or steal said equipment, then i have issues.
Nothing quite like a good old fashined early MMO PKing.. lose skill statistics, an equivlant of a level, and EVERYTHING you carried on you. Imagine that happening to you in SWG, and maybe you'll understand just how personal it can become.
All that said, when i PvP, i like it when the playing fields level. Going against Uberstack templates aint fun, and there not much skill involved, only who has the most time to build and aquire for said template.
Juusman
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:12 pm
#15
Sylia wrote:
So I'm playing this really exciting game...
It's pretty much all open, there is no "PVP" or "PVE" you can do whatever.
So I'm really getting into it you see, it's a load of fun.
I finally get the skill to be able to build a cruiser class starship!
I spend an entire month mining enough resources to build my cruiser and training my piloting skills to be able to use it.
I find a blueprint I can afford, it's not a heavy combat cruiser, just an entry level cruiser.
I finally build my very own cruiser!
I set off to a near by asteroid belt to pick up some more ore, and basically give it a shake down cruise.
... suddenly a combat cruiser warps in right in front of me and scrambles my warp engines so I can't get away.
I get a tell "Give me a million credits or die"
two shots later my cruiser is destroyed and I'm dead.
An entire month of my blood and sweat gone because somebungholewanted to play pirate.
.....havn't played that game since.
... now I'd like to hear what these "it should all be pvp" idiots would say after being ganked for a month's worth of gameplay.
Nice story.. and your point in reference to JTL is what exactly?
JimerLins
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:12 pm
#16
The ultimate in combat skills?
Good lord, is that what you think? Sorry, that's about the funniest thing I've ever read. Seriously, if you want combat and to build up your combat skills, I suggest you join the military. The SEALs are pretty elite, and so are the Army Rangers.
Combat skills... good lord. Someone sitting behind a keyboard with a joystick in one hand and a Mountain Dew in the other, saying "Just another couple minutes, Mom!" through the bedroom door with the faded Limp Bizkit poster on it.... doesn't evoke the idea of someone who's skilled at combat.
[edit: My bad, I missed the sarcasm in the post I responded to. Sorry about that. However, I'm leaving the post up unedited because there are people who think that way.]
Good lord, is that what you think? Sorry, that's about the funniest thing I've ever read. Seriously, if you want combat and to build up your combat skills, I suggest you join the military. The SEALs are pretty elite, and so are the Army Rangers.
Combat skills... good lord. Someone sitting behind a keyboard with a joystick in one hand and a Mountain Dew in the other, saying "Just another couple minutes, Mom!" through the bedroom door with the faded Limp Bizkit poster on it.... doesn't evoke the idea of someone who's skilled at combat.
[edit: My bad, I missed the sarcasm in the post I responded to. Sorry about that. However, I'm leaving the post up unedited because there are people who think that way.]
Message Edited by JimerLins on 11-08-2004 04:20 PM
Juusman
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:14 pm
#17
He was being sarcastic Jimer.. once again you fail to get THE POINT.
JimerLins wrote:
The ultimate in combat skills?
Good lord, is that what you think? Sorry, that's about the funniest thing I've ever read. Seriously, if you want combat and to build up your combat skills, I suggest you join the military. The SEALs are pretty elite, and so are the Army Rangers.
Combat skills... good lord. Someone sitting behind a keyboard with a joystick in one hand and a Mountain Dew in the other, saying "Just another couple minutes, Mom!" through the bedroom door with the faded Limp Bizkit poster on it.... doesn't evoke the idea of someone who's skilled at combat.
JimerLins
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:18 pm
#18
Juusman wrote:He was being sarcastic Jimer.. once again you fail to get THE POINT.
JimerLins wrote:
The ultimate in combat skills?
Good lord, is that what you think? Sorry, that's about the funniest thing I've ever read. Seriously, if you want combat and to build up your combat skills, I suggest you join the military. The SEALs are pretty elite, and so are the Army Rangers.
Combat skills... good lord. Someone sitting behind a keyboard with a joystick in one hand and a Mountain Dew in the other, saying "Just another couple minutes, Mom!" through the bedroom door with the faded Limp Bizkit poster on it.... doesn't evoke the idea of someone who's skilled at combat.
Heh, my bad.
Thing is, that's the actual attitude exhibited by a lot of folks, so it's not exactly surprising that I'd fail to see the sarcasm.
Of course, I was taking people to task for not seeing the sarcasm/irony in one of my posts earlier, so I suppose I get what I deserve, eh?
Trust me, I see your point. I just don't agree with it, and you haven't posited anything that would make me inclined to change my perspective on the issue.
IntoTheGarbage
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:24 pm
#19
I agree with almost everyone who has posted here, lol.
In JTL which is twitch based, there is not much difference between PvP, and PvE combat.
However, the problem is that the player base is from a turn based RPG game, where there is a big difference between PvP and PvE. That means that there is a large number of players that resent forced PvP in any form. If JTL were a stand alone game, I doubt there would be any serious problem with the Kessel mission. However, JTL is a new animal and these sorts of issues were bound to come up.
My feelings are that, as twitch games go, the PvP requirement here is pretty minimal. You don’t have to actually fight anyone, you just have to expose yourself to an attack. Furthermore, you do so while preparing for a mission that requires you to go in with a large number of friends. Only a large well prepared group of enemy players can stop you. It is impossible for players to permanently camp an entire region of space. If you are unlucky enough to be beaten by a larger group, just go back another time, eventually you will get through. When you stop and look at it, it is not that much different from a PvE mission.
I do not like the other extreme of allowing players to master a twitch profession without ever facing another player. This is simply different from every other profession in the game, and as I said, the actual PvP element here is pretty small. Clearly the Dev’s decided to include mandatory PvP, but did so in a way to keep it at the far end of the spectrum.
One last point, I don’t agree with calling players who attack you in Kessel ‘griefers.’ The mission was put in Kessel on purpose. Everybody who flys in Kessel, agrees to be attacked. Therefore, exposing yourself to player attacks by flyin in Kessel is part of the mission. Griefers deliberately interfere with game play, getting past other players is part of your mission and therefore part of game play. These players are not interfering with your mission, they are part of your mission. If you don’t like it, blame the devs who created the mission, not the players who play in it.
Juusman
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:28 pm
#20
JimerLins wrote:
Juusman wrote:
He was being sarcastic Jimer.. once again you fail to get THE POINT.
JimerLins wrote:
The ultimate in combat skills?
Good lord, is that what you think? Sorry, that's about the funniest thing I've ever read. Seriously, if you want combat and to build up your combat skills, I suggest you join the military. The SEALs are pretty elite, and so are the Army Rangers.
Combat skills... good lord. Someone sitting behind a keyboard with a joystick in one hand and a Mountain Dew in the other, saying "Just another couple minutes, Mom!" through the bedroom door with the faded Limp Bizkit poster on it.... doesn't evoke the idea of someone who's skilled at combat.
Heh, my bad.
Thing is, that's the actual attitude exhibited by a lot of folks, so it's not exactly surprising that I'd fail to see the sarcasm.
Of course, I was taking people to task for not seeing the sarcasm/irony in one of my posts earlier, so I suppose I get what I deserve, eh?
Trust me, I see your point. I just don't agree with it, and you haven't posited anything that would make me inclined to change my perspective on the issue.
Let's just agree to disagree.. this debate has been going on since the invention of MMORPG's and I don't think it'll be solved.. ever.
Uther27
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:32 pm
#21
Yeah Jimerlins, that was pretty funny actually.
Alright, so I totally get the "old feelings" syndrome. Hell, my wife won't even play galaxies for fear of some ganker is going to whack here randomly and make her give them stuff to leave her alone. She had a really bad experience with the original Diablo. I've tried many times to get her to change her mind, but it's been what over a year now? Yeah, she's not going to play I think.
Back to the point, that is not the case at all with SWG: JTL. For once in an MMO, we are all looking pretty much on the same ground. Strengths and weaknesses are given to each class of ship, with some ships being stronger than others. But it is still coming down to who gets the drop on who and/or who can outmaneuver the other. This is how it should be. Everyone has a basically equal chance to defend themselves from being attacked, or to attack others.
Also, the point about the free PVP I was talking about earlier was for factioned ships, you know the ones in the movies that were always attacking each other...
Ducimus
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:35 pm
#22
>>I do not like the other extreme of allowing players to master a twitch profession without ever facing another player
You know there are "twitch" games that don't require PvP right? Twitch does not equate to PvP.
>>These players are not interfering with your mission, they are part of your mission.
Acutally, they do interfere by the way they conduct themselves half the time. Hardcore Pkers looking for ANYTHING advantagous to maximize their chance to win, and minimize any chance of their ego getting bruised. Any exploit found, they'll use it to the fullest.
From what i understand, some groups have taken to camping the entry point into kessel. Intresting that, happends in alot of games. I'll bet half of the people entering are dead or halfway dead before their screen is finished loading. If things such as that hold true, they are interferring in a very obtuse way.
You know there are "twitch" games that don't require PvP right? Twitch does not equate to PvP.
>>These players are not interfering with your mission, they are part of your mission.
Acutally, they do interfere by the way they conduct themselves half the time. Hardcore Pkers looking for ANYTHING advantagous to maximize their chance to win, and minimize any chance of their ego getting bruised. Any exploit found, they'll use it to the fullest.
From what i understand, some groups have taken to camping the entry point into kessel. Intresting that, happends in alot of games. I'll bet half of the people entering are dead or halfway dead before their screen is finished loading. If things such as that hold true, they are interferring in a very obtuse way.
Slarus
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:41 pm
#23
>>I do not like the other extreme of allowing players to master a twitch profession without ever facing another player
You know there are "twitch" games that don't require PvP right? Twitch does not equate to PvP.
>>These players are not interfering with your mission, they are part of your mission.
Acutally, they do interfere by the way they conduct themselves half the time. Hardcore Pkers looking for ANYTHING advantagous to maximize their chance to win, and minimize any chance of their ego getting bruised. Any exploit found, they'll use it to the fullest.
From what i understand, some groups have taken to camping the entry point into kessel. Intresting that, happends in alot of games. I'll bet half of the people entering are dead or halfway dead before their screen is finished loading. If things such as that hold true, they are interferring in a very obtuse way.
You know there are "twitch" games that don't require PvP right? Twitch does not equate to PvP.
>>These players are not interfering with your mission, they are part of your mission.
Acutally, they do interfere by the way they conduct themselves half the time. Hardcore Pkers looking for ANYTHING advantagous to maximize their chance to win, and minimize any chance of their ego getting bruised. Any exploit found, they'll use it to the fullest.
From what i understand, some groups have taken to camping the entry point into kessel. Intresting that, happends in alot of games. I'll bet half of the people entering are dead or halfway dead before their screen is finished loading. If things such as that hold true, they are interferring in a very obtuse way.
Well put.
Twitch != PvP
it all boils down to numbers
% of people asking for PvP mission on the original 32 professions = 0%
% of people who complain when non-consentual PvP is added to game content = 100%
you will not find one pre-JTL profession a thread advocating PvP to master any profession pre=JTL.
you will alway find threads in SWG boards where PvP touches the topic people complaining about PvP.
PvP = complaints.
Goto City of Heros boards no one is complaining about lack of PvP, they are concerned that PvP when added by City of Villians that it doesn't ruin game play like PvP does to other MMOs.
Curious
Juusman
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:43 pm
#24
Problems with the way PvP is implemented does not equate to poor mission design. Sure, camping the load in point is lame.. even hard core PvP players will agree with that. But that's like PvE players complainingabout random MOBs spawning right on or near your mission. It should, and probably will, be fixed.. I hope.
Ducimus wrote:
>>I do not like the other extreme of allowing players to master a twitch profession without ever facing another player
You know there are "twitch" games that don't require PvP right? Twitch does not equate to PvP.
>>These players are not interfering with your mission, they are part of your mission.
Acutally, they do interfere by the way they conduct themselves half the time. Hardcore Pkers looking for ANYTHING advantagous to maximize their chance to win, and minimize any chance of their ego getting bruised. Any exploit found, they'll use it to the fullest.
From what i understand, some groups have taken to camping the entry point into kessel. Intresting that, happends in alot of games. I'll bet half of the people entering are dead or halfway dead before their screen is finished loading. If things such as that hold true, they are interferring in a very obtuse way.
Slarus
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:45 pm
#25
Problems with the way PvP is implemented does not equate to poor mission design. Sure, camping the load in point is lame.. even hard core PvP players will agree with that. But that's like PvE players complainingabout random MOBs spawning right on or near your mission. It should, and probably will, be fixed.. I hope.
it all boils down to numbers
% of people asking for PvP mission on the original 32 professions = 0%
% of people who complain when non-consentual PvP is added to game content = 100%
you will not find one pre-JTL profession a thread advocating PvP to master any profession pre=JTL.
you will alway find threads in SWG boards where PvP touches the topic people complaining about PvP.
PvP = complaints.
Goto City of Heros boards no one is complaining about lack of PvP, they are concerned that PvP when added by City of Villians that it doesn't ruin game play like PvP does to other MMOs.
If you can show me one pre=JTL profession that begged for PvP to be added to master, or one PvP MMO that is more popular then a Consent PvP MMO then you are in the minority.
Juusman
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:48 pm
#26
Umm.. Slarus, I read your post the first time you posted it. There's no need tocopy and paste your post throughout the boards.
Slarus wrote:
Problems with the way PvP is implemented does not equate to poor mission design. Sure, camping the load in point is lame.. even hard core PvP players will agree with that. But that's like PvE players complainingabout random MOBs spawning right on or near your mission. It should, and probably will, be fixed.. I hope.
it all boils down to numbers
% of people asking for PvP mission on the original 32 professions = 0%
% of people who complain when non-consentual PvP is added to game content = 100%
you will not find one pre-JTL profession a thread advocating PvP to master any profession pre=JTL.
you will alway find threads in SWG boards where PvP touches the topic people complaining about PvP.
PvP = complaints.
Goto City of Heros boards no one is complaining about lack of PvP, they are concerned that PvP when added by City of Villians that it doesn't ruin game play like PvP does to other MMOs.
If you can show me one pre=JTL profession that begged for PvP to be added to master, or one PvP MMO that is more popular then a Consent PvP MMO then you are in the minority.