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Thread: PvP damage in space is just fine.
Excellent post. 
However:
ShortTimer wrote:
I do understand the problem of those who aren't hotboxers or who don't have super fast connections.
Message Edited by truewildman on 11-10-2004 11:52 AM
truewildman wrote:
Excellent post.
ShortTimer wrote:
I do understand the problem of those who aren't hotboxers or who don't have super fast connections.
I don't buy this for a second. There are PvP twitch-based games with much faster action that have as it's top 10 players dial-up users on less-than-hotbox computers. (And they are mature adults who don't talk smack, so throw that argument out, too.)
Quake II and III come to mind as onlytwo examples. Players grapple-hooking from wall to wall so fast you can barely keep up on a 5Mbp connection, yet dial-up users, because of their uncanny timing ability, do extremely well. "My computer's too slow" or "I get lag" are just pathetic excuses forshort-comings.
I'm sure you can think of many other games.
Message Edited by truewildman on 11-10-2004 11:52 AM
PvP damage in space is right where it should be, seriously.
No it isn’t
I realize I was one of the people leading the charge to get the Master missions changed but when it comes to the actual PvP combat I think everything is just fine the way it is and here is why:
First of all it's realistic. In real life if you are cruising around in your F-16 and get hit by a missile you're probably either dead or needing to eject. Sure a F-16 doesn't have shields but the SW technology would compensate for that so it would only take a few hits to bring down a fighter. In the various movies we see fighters getting one and two shotted.
Bad idea comparing sci-fi to real life, but…
Second it make PvP more of a challange. You'll not only haveto think about what you're doing but you'll have to think FAST. This isn't a FPS, it's a flight sim and flight sims require thought not just spraying a room with your BFG-2000. Just like IRL space combat should stay "first look, first shot, first kill." This is also why it only takes 5 confirmed kills to make you an ace IRL.
It’s not a challenge though. That’s the whole point. Point and click. You hit? You win. Did you see that part where Luke’s ship was hit, but didn’t blow up? Or the part where the Falcon takes direct shots in the back for several minutes?
Third it levels the playing field. Sure I may only be in a tier 3 x-wing with tier 4 equipment and a master with lvl 10 equipment can one shot but, but I can 1 and 1/2 or 2 shot him in return. This makes it easier for lower level people to participate in PvP wihtout being completly outclassed just because they didn't grind as fast as the next guy.
You are missing some major points. Currently the playing field is not level AT ALL. There is no balance between heavy and light ships. The ONLY viable ship in PvP is a light/fast fighter. This should not be the case. There should be reasons to use both.
If you want to learn more about how real BFM's go down check here: http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_038a.html
Space sims are nothing like flight sims. I was a serious BF/BFV pilot, and the styles are very different.
I do understand the problem of those who aren't hotboxers or who don't have super fast connections. So maybe making damage where it's more like WW2 era dog-fighting wouldn't be bad either. Still though, it won't take more than a few good hits (less than 10 I'd say) to bring down the average fighter.
Contradicting yourself here 1-2 shots, or 10?
Oh, something I forgot to mention: I do agree with the guy who said that being PK'ed shouldn't do any wear and tear to your ship. I'm pretty sure your equipment doesn't take that kind of damage on the ground. I think it's a good idea because dying so fast in PvP will cause you to lose your ship too fast to decay and I don't know about anyone else but I don't have the in-game cash flow for that.
Toguro wrote:
none of your points are validbecause you aremaking referance to RL air combat logic. this is not, and has nothing to do with RL. its star wars with completly different rules and physics. it should take around 10-20 shots in PvP to kill an enemy fighter and 20-30 to kill a heavy bomber. this way, PvP would be much more interesting, intense, and most of all fun for everyone.
I got over my fear of being in Kessel by equipping my throw-a-way A wing with mid level loot components and leaving my uber gear at home.
With Mark II blasters I proceeded to gank a dozen Imperial players before someone put me in my place. Why? Because I saw them first, shot first, and hit first. As it is, PvP space combat damage allows the most aggressive player to rip into a unaware group before they know what hit them.
You can forget about the bugged droid programs, 3k shields, and 4k blasters. Those toys are for the Tier 5 NPC, not other players.
No buffs in space egg heads - and neither is your mommy.
But then something happened... I took my brand new Rebel Nova Courier into kessel with a crew of 6. I thought that with our turrets and and uber shields we could rip up some imperials in Kessel.... guess again.
2 hits from a bloody interceptor totally destroyed any shield coverage we had, and the third hit sent us to the cloning facility.
I play FPS with 'realism' mods any chance I get, because I hate blasting an enemy with a clip of ammo at point blank, while he turns, bunny hops, and kills me dead. But that is a FPS, where a round is a few minutes, there is no item decay, and you are back in the action in no time.
This is SWG - it takes you a while just to log and get your group together. I think PvP damage should allow for a little more defensive strategy, and not just reward the aggressive hunter (ganker) with the earliest initiative.
ShortTimer wrote:Oh, something I forgot to mention: I do agree with the guy who said that being PK'ed shouldn't do any wear and tear to your ship. I'm pretty sure your equipment doesn't take that kind of damage on the ground. I think it's a good idea because dying so fast in PvP will cause you to lose your ship too fast to decay and I don't know about anyone else but I don't have the in-game cash flow for that.
Toguro wrote:none of your points are valid because you are making referance to RL air combat logic. this is not, and has nothing to do with RL. its star wars with completly different rules and physics. it should take around 10-20 shots in PvP to kill an enemy fighter and 20-30 to kill a heavy bomber. this way, PvP would be much more interesting, intense, and most of all fun for everyone.Ah but clearly we see in the movies it only taking a few shots to take down an X-Wing. Watch the trench run of Ep. 4 and you'll see what I mean. Because of that I think comparing it to real life isn't that far off since it seems the damage model is similar.Someone else said:" It’s not a challenge though. That’s the whole point. Point and click. You hit? You win. Did you see that part where Luke’s ship was hit, but didn’t blow up? Or the part where the Falcon takes direct shots in the back for several minutes?"Do you realize that modern dogfighting IRL often means being hit once or twice and then being dead? Do you think dogfighting in real life isn't a challange? There may be a few air force pilots who disagree with you on that one. If you're pointing and clicking to PvP dogfight then it's obvious you don't know what you're doing. The AI in this game is insane, in real life you'd never attack head to head, you'd try to get behind the other guy to get a good shot in. Keeping the damage high forces you to use TACTICS and not point and click.But like I said maybe WW2 era dogfighting style would be more appropriate, but even then aircraft were shot down in a matter of seconds in the right circumstances."You are missing some major points. Currently the playing field is not level AT ALL. There is no balance between heavy and light ships. The ONLY viable ship in PvP is a light/fast fighter. This should not be the case. There should be reasons to use both."I haven't seen how any of the multiplayer ships perform in PvP so I can't comment on that. I do think those kinds of ships should take more effort to kill than regular fighters. However when it comes to "normal" fighters the light/ fast fighters ARE the ones that should dominate. We clearly see in the SW universe (in the movies anyhow) a damage model that seems similar to real life. IRL yes a bomber can take a few more hits than a regular plane, like maybe it would take two or three missiles depending on where they hit (and what kind of missile, etc etc etc). Bombers IRL are very vulnrable to attack by regular fighters, that's why they would get fighter escorts in WW2.There are reasons to use both. The multiplayer ships should be the flying fortresses of space (donno if they are, haven't seen them in action). The other heavy fighter/bombers would be used to take out enemy multi-player ships. Now I'll be honest and say I'm just throwing this out there, I don't know how multi-player ships perform. Now, unlike RL there are no bombing targets in space so there won't be as much of a need to break out the Y-wing. I think that's fine too becasue the ship has its place in PvE."Contradicting yourself here 1-2 shots, or 10?"I'm not contradicting myself at all. I'm suggesting that if damage is reduced then make PvP more like WW2 levels and don't make PvP like PvE. The mobs in PvE have so many hit points to make up for the fact they are not not intelligent thinking beings.A WW2 damage model would still give to faster paced combat but you'd be able to take a few hits. The number "10" I threw out to signify the heaviest of fighters and would be dependant on how the ship was hit and what it was hit with etc etc etc.
1: This isn't real life. If you want real life, Join the Air Force.
2: Pcs are not Mooks and shouldn't be treated as such. The Pirates in pirate trap and the bomber squad for Imps are more power ful then the ships that summoned them even though their at least 1 teir lower. Mook > player = bad
ShortTimer wrote:
First of all it's realistic. In real life if you are cruising around in your F-16 and get hit bya missile you're probably either dead or needing to eject. Sure a F-16 doesn't have shields but the SW technology would compensate for that so it would only take a few hits to bring down a fighter. In the various movies we see fighters getting one and two shotted.
Yeah, people get one and two shotted in the movies when they aren't the heroes. Guess what, we're not fodder in the star wars universe, we're essentially heroes.
In real life you don't get that close anyway, you fire off missiles before you can even visually see the target.
ShortTimer wrote:
Second it make PvP more of a challange. You'll not only haveto think about what you're doing but you'll have to think FAST. This isn't a FPS, it's a flight sim and flight sims require thought not just spraying a room with your BFG-2000. Just like IRL space combat should stay "first look, first shot, first kill." This is also why it only takes 5 confirmed kills to make you an ace IRL.
You don't have the think. You have to jam the "Z" button so you can target anyone if they can get in range. By the way, since you're busy doing this, when you hit z and a new guy shows up, it's hard to say whether they are loading in or they've just come into range. This leads to unintentional load kills.
ShortTimer wrote:
Third it levels the playing field. Sure I may only be in a tier 3 x-wing with tier 4 equipment and a master with lvl 10 equipment can one shot but, but I can 1 and 1/2 or 2 shot him in return. This makes it easier for lower level people to participate in PvP wihtout being completly outclassed just because they didn't grind as fast as the next guy.
Yeah, and people are going back to tier 1 ships so they don't just waste their chassis. A person in a y-wing should be able to take out someone in a faster ship if they manage to train their multiple guns on a ship but in turn the person in the faster ship should be able to dodge and if they get hit once, they can skirt around and try to overmanuver them. At this point there's no reason to fly a slower ship that you can load with more guns, because one gun can take out a ship. This makes ships for class roles useless in pvp. Bombers should bombers. X-Wings should be support. However, now everyone is just loading up their z-95. It's not equality, it's just stupid.