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Thread: Master level missions: a SOLUTION to make everyone happy.
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FalinMor
Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:12 pm
#1
RougeSmuggler wrote:
FalinMor wrote:
I like PvP myself.... but there's really a big difference between what you're saying and what was going on here.
You say that you don't like having to go through the PvE content in order to PvP. Fine, I can understand that. But that's nothing like having to PvP when you don't want to. No one specifically wants you to have to PvE, that's just the way this kind of game works. It's in the design. If there was a way for you to advance without PvE at all, I'm pretty sure the PvE folks wouldn't care.
So why do you care that they can advance without PvP? If you want them to have to PvP, it means that you want to have direct control of their ability to advance, that you want the ability to spoil theiradvancement/fun with direct action. Why? It's a purely selfish desire, and has no place in a game like this.
Falin
Falin, we both agree with each other.on the main point. I'm not saying that players that don't want to PvP should have to. I feel that Kessel should not be changed, but the Master mission should. The problem here is not that Kessel is PvP, it's that the mssion required to become Master takes place in a PvP area. Since we already have 8 playgrounds for PvE players to participate in without the threat of attack from players, it only makes sense to move the Master mission to a location where these players will not be upset.
-red
Yeah, I totally agree with this. Kessel going PvE is definitely not the best solution at all, and I'll miss it.
But it's the EASIEST solution. This needed to be addressed ASAP, hopefully a better solution will come forward after they have some time.
Falin
truewildman
Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:59 am
#2
Slarus wrote:
TH - I am a privateer, and do not like the idea of being forced to pick a side. In Kessel right now, I can go there and be attackable by Rebels, Imperials, and other Neutrals that are not of my group (I'm smuggler alliance). Is there going to be a way for me to go "overt" smuggler alliance at least, to make up for losing Kessel? I see this as detracting even further from the Privateer profession.
This is rich, before today there was no post calling for PvP to both sides, in fact Nuets would post here saying they should be able to pick a side, hahaI can't believe it.
Hey, genius, before neutrals didn't have anything to complain about. Now, for all neutrals who want to remain neutral cannot PvP in Kessel.
It's so very simple. Open your mind and wrap it around that, please.
ShortTimer
Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:46 pm
#3
I have a solution for master level missions to make everyone happy. I’m not gonna beat around the bush here with what I have to propose so here it is:
Give the master level pilot box to those people who completed the master level missions OR those who complete the 7.5 million xp.
Here is my reasoning:
In all other parts of SWG pvp is a consensual thing except for master level space boxes. I’ve read some very good ideas for why and why not the master level pilot missions should be in the PvP area. I think my solution can make everyone happy.
First those who would like to go with the PvP and have large groups to back them can go to Kessel and do their thing. The people who are arguing to keep it in Kessel know their reasons and will be happy they can do things this way.
Those who are strictly PvE-ers can still get the master box by grinding out the 7.5 million for it. 7.5 million xp is still no small achievement and I think it’s fair to say whoever gets this much xp deserves the master level box.
But won’t it be unfair to those who did it in Kessel? No and here is why: those who do it in Kessel will have the ace jacket (well for the rebels anyway) while those who didn’t won’t. Also the dev’s could slap in one more title to let everyone know you made your master level in Kessel.
I believe this would be easy for the dev’s to patch in and should make most parties happy. So dear community, flame away.
Edit: looking back on this now I see that I did a much better articulation and defence of this position on page three. I know many readers probably don't want to have to muddle through three pages worth of stuff to get to something better. So I am reposting my more detailed argument here as a suppliment to what is above.
ShortTimer wrote:
Well I certainly didn’t expect to cause this kind of a ruckus!
Let me address some issues here:
“Master Pilot is a choice”
Yes and so is playing the game, but this argument completely misses the point. The design philosophy from the start of SWG has been to allow for players to choose to pursue any profession they desire and to participate in consensual PvP. Master Pilot violates this design philosophy because those who would choose not to participate in PvP cannot become Master Pilots.
This argument misses the point because for some people Master Pilot IS NOT EVEN A CHOICE THEY CAN MAKE. It exists outside even the realm of possibility for, I’m guessing more than a few, casual players. MP is a blocked to them because of (what will surely become, with more and more people camping Kessel) the near impossibility involved in hunting down mobs in a PvP free fire zone. Not everyone has the time to play this game like a part time job and make thirty or forty friends to bring along with them. For the casual player MP is not even an option for them because of this.
This, in effect, makes MP a more difficult achievement than Jedi. Jedi takes a lot of time; Master Pilot takes a lot of friends. So the next time I see a MP running around I’ll know that they aren’t a mastah pilot, I’ll know they are a mastah of online l33t dood social skills.
I also have an issue with the actual difficulty (not related to skill) and rational of the Master Level mission but I’ll get to that in a minute.
“MP should be an achievement.”
As I touched on briefly in the last part, not everyone has the time or the will to make this game a part time job. For someone who doesn’t play 20+ hours a week racking up 7.5 million XP is a HUGE achievement for them. I’m sure there are players who could pump that out in a day or so. Of course when you play 26 hours a day that’s going to happen.
Let’s take a page from real life here. Do you know what it takes in real life to be an ace? The last time I checked you become an Ace in the air force when you have 5 enemy kills… FIVE. Can you imagine if that were true in this game as well? Maybe that’s not such a bad idea actually. The dev’s could make three ways to the Master Box:
1.)Complete the two missions
2.)Acquire 7.5 million XP.
3.)Kill 5 enemy players without being shot down (or maybe allow being shot down depending on how hard that would actually make it).
Difficulty of the mission.
In real life the title Ace is the results of the skill and actions of a pilot. Certainly his wingman and his squadron help in this achievement but never the less it is rewarded to an INDIVIDUAL. The missions at the Rebel tier 4 and master level do not reflect individual achievement. They are the results of you having uber-l33t dood friends. Now I will admit the tier 4 missions I’m thinking of (the last two, well actually just the last one because I was able to cheese-ball my way through the second to last) may become solo-able once shipwrights start having access to better space materials and the best way to tweak equipment is found. (Before you bust on me for being a 4/4/4/4 Rebel pilot in one week you should know I didn’t work this last week either. Had work been an issue there would be no way that would have happened.)
Right now the last two Rebel master missions do NOT reflect individual skill or achievement. Going to Kessel and living through that experience pretty much requires a group now and it will only be a greater requirement in the future as more people enter that zone. Now I do think it would be possible to shoot down 30 tier 5’s (for the Rebel mission) on my lonesome if one or two shot PvP were not a factor.
Right now with my gear and piloting abilities I can take on about 8 to 12 tier 4’s at once, depending on what kind of ships are shooting at me (rear turrets are a killer). This is around my limit because at some point I am just crushed by the shear weight of numbers. Even Bruce Lee would get his but whupped if attacked in the open by a hundred guys at once. Without a large group of friends along there will be no way I can sink that Corvette on my own. As I stated earlier this is a problem for those who don’t make this game a part time job and have 30 uber-l33t-dood friends along to help them out. This also makes it so the box is not a symbol of individual accomplishment (which ace is in the real world) but a symbol of my social-networking skills.
Right now I am in a guild. If I remember correctly we have the largest player-run city on Corellia on our server. When I try and martial our forces to go do JTL stuff I’ll get about 5 to 7 other players. This is no where near the number I would need for Kessel. The guild I’m in isn’t small either, this just comes down to the logistics of the situation of people having outside lives.
Conclusion
The devs could make Master Pilot achievement accessible to all if they allowed for several routes to its achievement. My original suggestion shouldn’t be hard to implement while the 5 player kill route would take some time. Heck, I write the pseudo code they could use in the Admiral’s conversation (for Rebels) for master pilot.
void main()
{
…
…
object oPC = GetLastPCSpeaker;
if( (GetLocalInt(oPC, MasterMissionsComplete)) == 1) || (GetPCPilotXP(oPC, 7500000)) )
{
AwardMasterPilot(oPC);
}
…
…
}
There ya go dev’s I’ve written the code for ya. Now if that’s not player involvement I don’t know what is.
Message Edited by ShortTimer on 11-08-2004 11:57 AM
Juusman
Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:02 pm
#4
ShortTimer wrote:
I have a solution for master level missions to make everyone happy. I’m not gonna beat around the bush here with what I have to propose so here it is:
Give the master level pilot box to those people who completed the master level missions OR those who complete the 7.5 million xp.
Here is my reasoning:
In all other parts of SWG pvp is a consensual thing except for master level space boxes. I’ve read some very good ideas for why and why not the master level pilot missions should be in the PvP area. I think my solution can make everyone happy.
First those who would like to go with the PvP and have large groups to back them can go to Kessel and do their thing. The people who are arguing to keep it in Kessel know their reasons and will be happy they can do things this way.
Those who are strictly PvE-ers can still get the master box by grinding out the 7.5 million for it. 7.5 million xp is still no small achievement and I think it’s fair to say whoever gets this much xp deserves the master level box.
But won’t it be unfair to those who did it in Kessel? No and here is why: those who do it in Kessel will have the ace jacket (well for the rebels anyway) while those who didn’t won’t. Also the dev’s could slap in one more title to let everyone know you made your master level in Kessel.
I believe this would be easy for the dev’s to patch in and should make most parties happy. So dear community, flame away.
Allowing players to simply grind out the xp will devalue the rewards for doing it "the hard" way. Who cares about the ace pilot jacket? You know and I know, that themain reason people want to get master pilot is to get the cool ships. So great.. everyone can just grind out 7.5 mill xp in a week, if that, and everyone is flying around in YT 1300s, Nova Couriers, and Decimators.
I say keep the master pilot rare, or at least very very hard to get... and no I'm not a master pilot; but I'm helping people do their missions, and they will help me do mine. If you get a decent group together the missions become easier.
ShortTimer
Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:12 pm
#5
A decent group of what 18 to 20 people? Sorry but I don't have uber l33t friends like that.
That's besides the point anyhow: SWG's philosophy so far has been to make PvP consentual and I think it should say that way. The master level missions are a violation of that philosophy.
They should either make this small change or make all the professions require PvP for the master level.
ShortTimer
Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:23 pm
#6
Let me put this another way:
YOUR fun is in no way spoiled if I am a master pilot too. MY fun IS spoiled if I am unable to complete the pilot tree because I don't have 30 friends to bring along to Kessel with me.
Since I am in no way ruining the game for you by being a master pilot and saying out of Kessel, you have no say in how I should get that box. My game IS BEING RUINED because I have NO WAY of ever achieving this.
Let's be real here about something: master level pilot box has NOTHING TO DO WITH SKILL. Fighting flight sim AI is a no-briainer. The only way the devs can make it difficult is by sending ships with stronger guns and armor and more of them. I've never seen the enemy AI try a split-S in space, so blowing up their ships at master level is NOT an indication of skill.
If you want master level to be an indication of skill then make it so we have a counter where you get to be master after you blow up... say... thirty PLAYER controlled ships. THAT would take skill. Let's not delude ourselves that if you have the master box it means you can fly.
YOUR fun is in no way spoiled if I am a master pilot too. MY fun IS spoiled if I am unable to complete the pilot tree because I don't have 30 friends to bring along to Kessel with me.
Since I am in no way ruining the game for you by being a master pilot and saying out of Kessel, you have no say in how I should get that box. My game IS BEING RUINED because I have NO WAY of ever achieving this.
Let's be real here about something: master level pilot box has NOTHING TO DO WITH SKILL. Fighting flight sim AI is a no-briainer. The only way the devs can make it difficult is by sending ships with stronger guns and armor and more of them. I've never seen the enemy AI try a split-S in space, so blowing up their ships at master level is NOT an indication of skill.
If you want master level to be an indication of skill then make it so we have a counter where you get to be master after you blow up... say... thirty PLAYER controlled ships. THAT would take skill. Let's not delude ourselves that if you have the master box it means you can fly.
Lumpi667
Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:36 pm
#7
Im not against PvP in general, but to force PvP to people who dont enjoy it is lame... 
I understand the PvP gamers who say the Ace title shouldnt be easy to get, but I am a player who dont like PvP in a roleplaying game. Im here to play a role, and as far as my main character is involved, I cant play him without the master box as I need it for the YT-1300 FREIGHTER. I want to play a freighter captain, not a fighter pilot. Can anyone answer me, why I need to do PvP for this?
I dont think I am alone with this opinion.
If I am a rebel or imp in the ground game, I know of the danger to be attacked by opposing PCs and it might be fun, but up to now, it was always said, you dont want to PvP go neutral. Now even as a strictly neutral player you have to PvP.
The 3 pilot profs are the only one with required PvP atm.
Sure there are the Jedis who are in danger of PvP all the time, but that is a decision and there are 3 dozen of choices on the groud where you dont need to PvP. In space you only have 3 choices, all combat related, and all with a PvP threat at the end. So, to fully enjoy ground game you MAY PvP if you want it and if you like it, but to fully enjoy space you are forced into PvP, so I see there a big difference. I think there should be an option to fully enjoy space without PvP!
Finishing and surviving the Kessel run should be nothing everyone has done, but if you have us all go there for the master boxes, it isnt anything special anymore!
So I think getting the Master missions out of Kessel and instead of this adding a mission for Kessel, which will give you a badge and/or some other reward (that isnt essential for the game experience(the YT-1300 is essential for most)) would make most of the players happy and would also add to continueity (spelling?)!
Just my 2 cents
Pavic
Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:44 pm
#8
Just posted the same thing, give the option of the 7.5mil. Oh, and most people who chose this option are not going to grind it in a week. We are chosing it because we don't have uber pilot friends and hard core player friends who can help us get the box, nor can we spend the time in the kessel sector hunting TIEs one at a time, because we only get two or three hours on the game at a "long" sitting.
IrovMistwalker
Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:27 pm
#9
Completely agree. They should have never implemented it the way they did. The griefers should not decide who gets master pilot or not.
Baalzvuv
Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:34 pm
#10
ShortTimer wrote:
A decent group of what 18 to 20 people? Sorry but I don't have uber l33t friends like that.
That's besides the point anyhow: SWG's philosophy so far has been to make PvP consentual and I think it should say that way. The master level missions are a violation of that philosophy.
They should either make this small change or make all the professions require PvP for the master level.
It IS consensual, no one is forcing you to be a master pilot.
As to wanting the best stuff, well, thatschoice you make, to me, it ruins the game to have Jedi, Master any class, and so on running around all willy nilly, and not have any real work done to make it that far.
Grinding is not a way that the master part of any class should be reached. It should require either an incredibly difficult quest, one that is changed on a very regular basis, so that it is something memorable, or a PVP thing, something that will not make it common.
ShortTimer
Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:46 pm
#11
Yeah and no one is forcing me to play the game either, but I'd like to do it and have fun. Part of my definition of that fun is being a mastah pilot so I can get that b-wing.
And about it being hard: get real about it, defeating this AI has NOTHING to do with skill. Skill would be fighting other players and winning. The mission is stacked so in a manner that is so difficult only you uber-l44t doods will be mastah pilot. I play the game casually and would like the option of being able to finish this. And NO I don't have 30 friends to bring along and NO I don't have the time to beg random leet-doods to help me.
I think us 7.5m people need us a slogan.
Palad
Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:48 pm
#12
ShortTimer wrote:
Let me put this another way:
YOUR fun is in no way spoiled if I am a master pilot too. MY fun IS spoiled if I am unable to complete the pilot tree because I don't have 30 friends to bring along to Kessel with me.
Since I am in no way ruining the game for you by being a master pilot and saying out of Kessel, you have no say in how I should get that box. My game IS BEING RUINED because I have NO WAY of ever achieving this.
Let's be real here about something: master level pilot box has NOTHING TO DO WITH SKILL. Fighting flight sim AI is a no-briainer. The only way the devs can make it difficult is by sending ships with stronger guns and armor and more of them. I've never seen the enemy AI try a split-S in space, so blowing up their ships at master level is NOT an indication of skill.
If you want master level to be an indication of skill then make it so we have a counter where you get to be master after you blow up... say... thirty PLAYER controlled ships. THAT would take skill. Let's not delude ourselves that if you have the master box it means you can fly.
You sir, have earned my 5 star award. I agree 100%, I hate the mission based leveling. For one, some missions are impossible for us solo/casual/non guild aligned players. Also it shouldnt matter how many of these elitests want to be the only master pilots, that shouldnt be for them to decide. With the current system it is for them to decide. They can grief the hell out of you and kill you every chance they get and directly prohibit you from getting master pilot. They dont want this to change because they want to feel l33t, no other reason but that.
I have no friends in this game, Hell I tried to pay people to help me complete this mission tonight and no one bothered to take the offer. I dont see what else I can do to help my progression. I have enough XP to get 4444 all except I cant complete one near impossible mission to move forward. Make my advance by XP OR mission.
Ventuviper
Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:49 pm
#13
I actually agree with the original poster on this because I have done some of the master missions (There are 2 for rebels and I assume Imps as well). I killed the 30 TIEs to get the ace jacket while dodging PvPers and I did not like having to worry about Tier 5 aggressors, gunboats and that one PvPer that is tearing up my group with single shots. Hell we were working on the corvette mission (had fighters and both gunboats destroyed) when 1/2 my group got killed by a single PvPer and the other half sat and watched as the corvette went into hyperspace. I don't get to play very often for long periods of time, but believe that I should have ever chance to get Master Pilot as everyone else does. It takes time and lots of planning to even get a decent group together and then to top it all off the damn corvette has certain spawn times which may or may not work in your favor (usually not). I have attempted this mission 5 times already and only once did we get close enough to defeating the corvette, while the rest of the time was wasted by griefers or running out of time.
Here is the catch to the 7.5 million xp, if you chose to take that path...you cannot get a duty mission to fulfill it. This would not only make it harder to get the xp, but a little more time consuming as well. All a jedi has to do is get millions of xp, why can the pilot not do the same type grind? Personally I hate PvP, especially the way it is set up right now in space. It takes no real "skills" to get the kills you just have to know where to sit and wait OR have a group that you can use to sneak up on someone that is in the middle of a mission and kill.
DEVs I seriously hope you look at this as an option since not all people have availability to the groups needed to take out the corvette or even go to Kessel and hope to survive very long.
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