Items And Loot Archive

Thread: Why I joined the dark side and started camping.

Alristico
Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:49 pm
#40



symphony, all I have to do is ask you to think about the extremes. At one end is all poi's being camped by afkers and noone else getting to experience them or even compete for the loot the way they were supposed to be.


at the other end we have all players actually playing the game and interacting the way the game was meant.


TH said it best when he said, "There will be some issues around losing the ability to do things with recursive macros or while AFK which will need to be addressed as part of this effort, but overall it is better for the game environment to not have this as a sanctioned behavior."


games are meant to be played, notafked lol.

Message Edited by Alristico on 02-06-2005 05:51 PM



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Symphony
Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:14 pm
#41

Believe me, I understand your point, I just don't agree with it.

If you nerf the macros and people have to be ATK, I don't believe you'll get rid of camping. In fact, I think the people will just shift to almost undetectable 3rd party macros or they'll be ATK camping. Either way, camping will continue. I don't think this is the solution you want.


What this game needs is separate instances for POIs and missions for any group or person who enters. The critters will be the same and you could still see all the other players and such, but when you finish it, there is a separate instance of the loot pile for every group/player. Everyone could still have a chance at the goodies AND there would be more loot in the game. On missions, maybe other players could see the critters, but they couldn't see the spawn site - this way, you don't have players who steal your missions from you. This (IMO) seems like a much better solution.


It would also let both of us play how we like. You could have your sense of accomplishment because you killed Nyax and got your very own +10 tape of whatever and I could sit and loot the borgle caves all day until I finally got the WS tapes I'm looking for. The tapes would be around in such quantities that they would sell for peanuts. This, to me, is the perfect solution.


I didn't really start this thread in an effort to discuss possible solutions, but what do you guys think of this idea? Personally, I like it better than the idea of nerfing macros, but what does everyone else think?



FarStar: D'rangoe Phett
Master Smuggler / Master Weaponsmith (+nothin')
Alristico
Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:48 pm
#42






Symphony wrote:

Believe me, I understand your point, I just don't agree with it.

If you nerf the macros and people have to be ATK, I don't believe you'll get rid of camping. In fact, I think the people will just shift to almost undetectable 3rd party macros or they'll be ATK camping. Either way, camping will continue. I don't think this is the solution you want.


What this game needs is separate instances for POIs and missions for any group or person who enters. The critters will be the same and you could still see all the other players and such, but when you finish it, there is a separate instance of the loot pile for every group/player. Everyone could still have a chance at the goodies AND there would be more loot in the game. On missions, maybe other players could see the critters, but they couldn't see the spawn site - this way, you don't have players who steal your missions from you. This (IMO) seems like a much better solution.


It would also let both of us play how we like. You could have your sense of accomplishment because you killed Nyax and got your very own +10 tape of whatever and I could sit and loot the borgle caves all day until I finally got the WS tapes I'm looking for. The tapes would be around in such quantities that they would sell for peanuts. This, to me, is the perfect solution.


I didn't really start this thread in an effort to discuss possible solutions, but what do you guys think of this idea? Personally, I like it better than the idea of nerfing macros, but what does everyone else think?





believe me, if you understood my point then you'd agree with it.Lol how can you understand that"it is better for the game environment to not have this as a sanctioned behavior" and not agree with it at the same time? /sighPlz stop dancing around the issue and trying to make excuses cause thats all I see again. Both atk camping and 3rd party programs have nothing to do with the main point which is that afk camping high end loot is not good for the game. Thats not an opinion thats a fact. You are taking away content from people who are actually playing and hording it, weeding out what you want and giving the rest away to friends. Then you say its good for the economy yet the prices are still in the millions.


And if you had a clue about economics you'd know the prices were so high because that is what people will pay, not because the sellers set the price. If they didn't sell then the prices would lower but there are too few attachments and too much need for them for you to make any difference, especially when you give them away to friends or maybe a few to random people.


btw what do you think would happen if the game were flooded with every type of high end loot? No more high end loot. Nothing to strive for after reaching a certain point = dead game. Thank god your not a game developer.


I'm done, your stubborn and illogical.




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cpz
Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:57 pm
#43






Symphony wrote:

Instead, I'll summarize our respective viewpoints as I see them. If I got them wrong, then please feel free to correct.


Your viewpoint:

1) AFK camping is wrong. ATK camping is okay, as long as it's not at a major POI


I can only guess you've deliberately missed the key factor...AFK camping is unethical exploiting of a program oversight as you are taking the reward without completing the task. And no,before you try and make the point,this does not mean clearing the cave once, six months ago justifies staying there for eternity. Whether it's a major POI has nothing to do with it. It's about denying other players their rightful rewards.



2) Charging outrageous amounts of credits for loot is fine since you feel you earned the loot

3) ATK camping POIs and AFK camping in general hurt the game.


My viewpoint:

1) Camping is camping - it doesn't matter if it is at the keyboard, or away from it. It doesn't matter where you do it, whether it's meatlumps or Nyax.


AKF Camping requires no effort. Therefore it is lazy; it is cheating. It is robotic. This game is meant to be organic.



2) Camping in all its various methods contributes more loot to the game, making it more widely available to all who want it

3) It is NEVER okay to exploit your fellow gamers. If you don't need or want a particular item, give it to someone who does need it or want it.


You are absolutely exploiting other gamers by denying that novice whobeats the Matriach the chance to loot the site. Suppose he wants a WS tape? Eh? He's done the cave, but you steal the loot. Your behaviour negatively affects his game. You have cheated him.



At this point, none of the objections listed under "your viewpoint" are enough to sway me that my viewpoint is wrong.


I have a feeling that you know your viewpoint's wrong. You just don't want to admit it, until, perhaps,YOU get whatYOU want. And that's what this ultimately is all about. ME ME ME. *I* WANT THIS. *I* NEED THAT.

It's a selfish attitude that sickens me, to be perfectly honest.








oooooooooooooooooo
Colonel Narayan Darkfly (RIP)
Master Smuggler
Eclipse

The Awful Truth [now santized for family friendly fun]: One Two Three Four Five Six
Symphony
Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:24 pm
#44

Then the feeling is mutual, because you and those like you who sell stuff you don't need or want for millions of credits and effectively put the cooler aspects of this game out of the hands of the general gamer make me sick. I cleared the borgle cave - several times, in fact. I didn't get the tape I wanted - I would gladly put every single one of the tapes I got back for someone else to use if I could just get a decent WS tape. Don't tell me I didn't earn it - I've cleared that cave so often I've lost count. You are deluding yourself if you think I think it's wrong deep down in the darkest corners of my heart or something.


Now, I'm done talking about what you think is right and what I think is right. All of us, me included, have been saying the exact same thing to varying degrees - I believe they were adequately represented in my summary. Unless you bring something new to the table, you're not going to convince me that I'm doing something wrong.


The idea that I proposed lets us each play in the manner that we like to play. Personnaly, I hate grinding the xp required for the various aspects of this game and I love that it can be automated. If I want to sleep while my bot slowly gathers pistol/unarmed/rifle xp, I don't see how that should be a problem. Nerfing macros will NOT solve the camping issues - the only thing it will accomplish is that it will make people actually sit through the grind of the various professions. To me, this was the thing I disliked most about this game.


Unless the macro nerf is accompanied by something more interesting or fun for gaining xp, then I don't think it's a good idea.





FarStar: D'rangoe Phett
Master Smuggler / Master Weaponsmith (+nothin')
Symphony
Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:36 pm
#45






Alristico wrote:




believe me, if you understood my point then you'd agree with it.Lol how can you understand that"it is better for the game environment to not have this as a sanctioned behavior" and not agree with it at the same time? /sighPlz stop dancing around the issue and trying to make excuses cause thats all I see again. Both atk camping and 3rd party programs have nothing to do with the main point which is that afk camping high end loot is not good for the game. Thats not an opinion thats a fact. You are taking away content from people who are actually playing and hording it, weeding out what you want and giving the rest away to friends. Then you say its good for the economy yet the prices are still in the millions.






One last thing so I can address this and then I'll move on. I said that I understood your point, but that I didn't agree. I understand that there are those (like yourself) that believe the game is made to be played. You believe there is no reason to play the game unless you are doing something worthwhile. That is you.


Then there is me. There are aspects of this game that I detest - and grinding the xp for various professions is one of them. I do NOT want to be sitting at the keyboard for it if I don't have to. It's not fun or interesting. I want to go out and do the various POIs, kill stuff, etc. but the monsters don't ramp up slowly as you get further away from the newbie cities. You can take a wort mission and someone else can take a mountain squill mission and they can spawn right next to each other. You can group to mitigate some of these dangers, but if you like to solo a lot, then it's dangerous to leave the town alone as a noob - which causes you to kill the same creatures over and over. My God, why would someone want to do this? Apparently, you're okay with it and it's your idea of fun. I understand that you like it, but I don't agree that it's fun.







FarStar: D'rangoe Phett
Master Smuggler / Master Weaponsmith (+nothin')
ShinjoKazuki
Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:45 pm
#46

playing the game should involve playing it but im an afker for grinding and everything as well



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TheNola
Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:46 pm
#47


Symphony, I half agree with you, and half disagree.


You are correct. The people who set the prices of the economy are the buyers, not the sellers (Supply & Demand).


I am guessing that you think your AFK-macroing is going to fix the problem? It's not. Trading your SEA's for others or selling your SEA's for a "reasonable price" will not fix the problem. You are one of many, and it will not make a difference... not a noticeable difference at all.


I consider AFK-looting and AFK-combat a cheat. Some of you argue that it is *not* a cheat if it is possible and that macros were intended to BE in the game. True, macro's were meant to be in the game, but not intended to AFK-dance/loot/combat, therefore making it morally wrong. Morally wrong is good enough for me to call it a "cheat" in my own definitions because you are cheating your way to level, to XP, to enrich your bank account. Then what are macros intended for? One example I see is for Entertainers to use (for dancing). Entertainers are supposed to be very social; they talk to every body. To stop the typing just to press a hotkey for flourishes becomes a nuisance. In a sense, they should use a macro to perform their flourishes and gain XP as they are ATK and busy typing to people (entertaining and healing them by typing to them).


All ATK playersspend their time and sweat into their characters for advancement. That is very precious... to be able to say, "ohhhh I remember those days when I used to grind out all those ribbed shirts." Memories almost... You, however, cannot say something like this because you did not spend any time nor sweat into the advancement of your characters (the "back in the day when we used to ____ and I was so happy when I fiiiiiiiinally reached Master ___"). It's part of the game... to start off as a "newb". I can honestly say "I've earned my way to Master Tailor." You cannot.


You have good reasoning, but what you are doing about the situation is morally wrong.


And why "pay" if you dont "play"?

Message Edited by TheNola on 02-06-2005 09:51 PM



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cpz
Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:51 pm
#48

Let's not muddy the issue. This isn't about grinding, or camping, or content. This is about afk looting of premium spawn sites, and how it negetively affects other players' game experience.



oooooooooooooooooo
Colonel Narayan Darkfly (RIP)
Master Smuggler
Eclipse

The Awful Truth [now santized for family friendly fun]: One Two Three Four Five Six
Xenoch
Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:59 pm
#49

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that tries to bring down the prices. I am sick of scalpers on gorath and have tried my best to bring prices through the floor. I will continue to do so as long as I can. I don't macro for tapes but if I get them I sell them cheap just to get them out there. I also sell containers on my vendor for 1k, and all the parts for kits cheap. The most expensive being the dye, adhesive... so on around 10k usually. Hey I still have to pay for my houses. Thanks for all the work to bring prices down... hope more of us do so.
wai7
Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:11 pm
#50

This is just like me and my Swordsman issue. I dont like how melee outbeats all other ranged professions, but i must do it to survive. Camping isnt right, but he does it anyway to outbeat the people who DO sell them for millions. it lowers the prices because if all the prices are low, and some guy tries to sell one for millions, no one will buy from him.
Symphony
Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:07 am
#51






cpz wrote:

Let's not muddy the issue. This isn't about grinding, or camping, or content. This is about afk looting of premium spawn sites, and how it negetively affects other players' game experience.







You are mistaken. This thread is about why I started camping: the outrageous prices various players charge for things in game and how I believe this is wrong. I'm done discussing camping, I believe I've summarized our respective viewpoints and I know that you cannot convince me that camping is wrong, just like I cannot convince you that it's good.


Perhaps you can explain to me why you think it's okay to charge millions for stuff you won't use in the game when there are other players who really need that stuff and can't afford to pay that kind of money for it.




FarStar: D'rangoe Phett
Master Smuggler / Master Weaponsmith (+nothin')
cpz
Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:14 am
#52






Symphony wrote:

Perhaps you can explain to me why you think it's okay to charge millions for stuff you won't use in the game when there are other players who really need that stuff and can't afford to pay that kind of money for it.




What on Earth has given you the idea that I do that? I've never stated that I do. You assume too much. And the funny thing is, do you know why it is that I've never had a premium attachment? Go on, guess.



That's right - because exploiters like you get them all.You see that coincidence?That's called irony.



The best attachment I ever looted was a Carbine speed +4, and I gave that to a Carbineer guildmate. I gave it to him because I don't play the game with a totally selfish outlook. It's not about me, my needs, my desires, my greed.


The only thing I regularly do is the Geo Caves, and I do that every now and again safe in the knowledge that I deserve the Acklay loot if I kill the Acklay. I have earned the prize. Understand? See that idea? That's called integrity.






oooooooooooooooooo
Colonel Narayan Darkfly (RIP)
Master Smuggler
Eclipse

The Awful Truth [now santized for family friendly fun]: One Two Three Four Five Six
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