Game Guides Archive
Thread: Starter Professions
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kevincore
Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:56 am
#27
Listen man, thanks but no thanks, I don't need any help. I was just asking a question, what gets me, is why this affects you so badly. Get over it, walk away, read a book...do something....thank you. Why do you have such a need to bust on me for asking a simple question. Relax pal.
/wave
groovysplat101
Mon Nov 01, 2004 3:11 pm
#29
What I mean is, many of the "good" skills sets out there don't include space for Medic, for example. A lot of lower level PvEers rely on StimB's to keep them going. Without Novice Medic, they're in trouble.
People who want to Master Ranger often find themselves lacking additional skills. You're basically boxed into Rifleman/Ranger or Carbineer/Ranger.
Commandos who decide to Master Rifleman for its Sniping abilities don't get much space for Medic, or any Scout (for terrain negotiation, and such). You can't actually be a "realistic" Commando while actually posessing more than the bare minimum of several different professions. There's no way you could manage to get Camo and Commando...yet logically, those two things fit together nicely.
I guess my major beef is that a lot of professions are sectioned off, and needlessly so. There should be far more overlap between professions than there is. We've had discussions all over the place about how "in real life" people have a whole mix of skills, that the game just doesn't take into account.
Lets take a "GI Joe" Infantry soldier. They have:
- Master Rifleman or Master Carbineer (at least, getting very close to it)
- Master Marksman (you usually need basic Pistol, Carbine and Rifle abilities, up to a reasonably competant level)
- Scout (Trapping, Wilderness Survival, Terrain Negotiation)
- Ranger (for Camo, and Terrain Negotiation to an even higher level)
- Artisan (for the basic cooking and clothing repair stuff)
- Medic (at least 2000, for the first aid)
- Brawler (Unarmed, usually for self defence)
And thats just for a GI. If you get into the higher levels, you've got Squad Leader creaping in. If you move into the realms of Commandos, and the kind of Guerilla Warfare troopers that the Rebel Alliance should be full of, you start adding more Commando, more Ranger, and possibly extra weapon skills. Plus, you could count Slicing from Smuggler, and Investigation (to some extent) from Bounty Hunter. Then there's Area Track, which requires more Ranger...you get well beyond the constraints of the skill point system. Those individuals are not trained to work alone...they work in teams. Ok, so its a generalisation, but I think I'm getting the point across. This is what I meant by not havinga complete set. SOME of us, who are playing this MMORPG, seek to create rounded characters, who seem realistic, rather than being the best possible. I don't have a problem not mastering Rifleman in order to get other skills, but since when did members of the Royal Army, or the US Army train as scouts before they were taught about camouflage principals? I was in the Air Cadets for about 6 months, and I learned a heck of a lot about camo and "General Defence Training", which involved all kinds of things, like moving around in the dark, evading detection, weapons training, and all sorts. And that was GENERAL training for the RAF...the sort of thing that everyone gets, be they Engineer, Chef, Pilot or Security guard. Yes, people go on to specialise, but they still learn the basics.
The skill system of SWG is far too compartmentalised. There should be a far greater ability to "pick and choose" abilities from different professions. The skills in Ranger should not require mastery of Scout to perform. Smuggler should not require the unarmed stuff. There should be a less hierarchical system of skills, and a more "I want to learn this" approach. Maybe the gap could be bridged with Faction professions, which provide a "crash course" in the basic professions. You get less certifications, less bonuses, and less special abilities...but it also costs less skill points. You'd end up not being as good, because you aren't as well trained in that field, but you'd still gain access to higher level training.
Thats what I meant. And yes, myarguement does transfer over to non-combat and half-and-half professions as well. Some people have raised the Shipwright-Weaponsmith, Shipwright-Armoursmith and Shipwright-Droid Engineer subjects, where they believe there should be more stuff given over to other professions. Shipwright, aside from the droids, picks and chooses weapons from weaponsmith (in theory), and armour from armoursmith (in theory). While I don't agree with the arguement, you get the general idea.
If, perhaps, the skills in the game were modified into clusters, so you got so many "Combat" skill points, so many "Crafter"skill points, so many "Healer"skill points, and thena big chunk of "General" skill points, it would force people to flesh out their skillset...taking things like Novice Entertainer, so their character can play an instrument as a hobby, or getting the basics of medicine that would help them become a soldier, the basics of engineering that every Starfighter pilot has already learned, but transferred over to repearing speeders and such. There are all of these things that real people can do which characters can't, for lack of skills. Either "hobby" professions, "fast-track" professions, or a forced non-combat skill set system would make more sense, in realistic terms.
I dunno. Maybe even a core "Soldier" profession, maybe something you could only obtain when you joined a military organisation (aka. a Faction), and paid for with faction points, that would give you a few modest bonuses, some basic abilities and certifications, and would then line you up for later professions...that would be great. But right now, things aren't realistic enough. They're just too...artificial. It makes Roleplaying far too hard...and I think players would have more fun participating in a team where they all knew the basics, and could then specialise in various areas to benefit the team...that would make far more sense to me than having a situation where people only have their specialisations.
But I guess thats just me.
Message Edited by groovysplat101 on 11-01-2004 10:18 PM
Vi_ikram
Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:56 pm
#30
You are right about the compartmentalization in the game, there is only vertical movement within one set of skills. It would be logical thatinter-related skill in different proffessions might not cost as many skill points to acquire, half for example.
I think on the whole, the ideas are sound. There are a few things in particular I disagree with, such as theskills you give the basic G.I Joe. I am veryfamiliarwith this aspect and I think you rate most of them too high, but other than that rather accurately.
Look at what I am saying as cross training in a related field. The principles will come a loteasier asone is already familair with the basic concepts.
groovysplat101
Mon Nov 01, 2004 5:13 pm
#31
I know I over-exagerated some of the skills, but I also know the sorts of things that I got trained on as a Cadet. I qualified, in my first shooting session, for what I would count as Head Shot 1, and made Head Shot 2 in the second. I know people who've made Head Shot 3, and some of them are worthy of the Sniper Shot...and we're talking about 16-year-olds who've never fired a gun before. I know people who've moved on to larger guns, which would fall under Counter-sniping, and have got pretty proficient with those. These aren't soldiers...these are kids who get to go shooting at the weekends. So in some respects, I'm not exagerating.
But you still got the picture.
And I agree...sort of. The problem really is that you need to have Mastered scout before you can get the Camo stuff in Ranger...thats way too far over the top. Maybe those skills, at an increased cost, but without requiring all of scout might be better?
Leana_Txorana
Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:16 am
#32
There isn't enough employment diversity in JTL at the moment. People are having not quite enough skills to complete character skill sets, or are being forced to pick the "uberest" skill set, in order to survive.
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How can having 2.5 master professions not enable you to complete a character skill set? I have tried many combinations and in general you have enough skill point to create just about any template.
Plus, your comment "in order to survive".Are you talking the ability to compete and survive in a 20 on 20 PvP event with Jedi and CM running rampant, then yes there are currently a number of templates that are more beneficial. If you mean PvE or just the ability to have fun in PvP and not have to dominate, then many options are viable.
On the other hand, I have played crafters that had no problems existing in this dangerous areas, I have had many different types of combinations and they were all viable.
If there are too many points, then no one will need to have to decide on a role. Everyone wil be the best crafter/PvE/PvP template in the game.
The real solution is balancing the professions so only a small number of templates are viable. Once that is done, then 250 or even less would be good enough for anyone to be viable in any role they want.
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