Doctor Archive

Thread: Why do people say buffs are the problem with pvp?

Rotorion
Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:02 pm
#1

Ok, I have been a Master Doctor for a little while now. Recently it seems as though people are saying that buffs cause people to be in godmode....blah...blah..... Anyway my point is why do people want to nerf or get rid of something that A. lets them fight high level content like nightsisters and kryats (sp?) B. allows them to not get killed in one shot in pvp and C. would practically destroy the Doctor class if it were nerfed. I'm not saying all Doctors can do is buff, but it is a major part of our class I feel. Personally I am also a TKM and i love to buff myself, throw on some armor and then go defend a base or city. Sure I get my butt handed to me a lot but i still find it fun. Why do people blame something that helps them so much for their problems with pvp? If you dont believe me check the GCW fourms...It seems like every post I read someone complains about buffs, or even armor for that matter. What do you guys think? I love buffs and it's one of the main reasons i chose to become a Doctor. I want to know what you guys as fellow Doctors think about this.



Rotorion -=ISO=-
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Master Doctor/Master PIkemen
RedAnubis
Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:38 pm
#2

It is not the buff that is the problem, but that of some players using the double buff exploit.



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Eyam
Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:57 pm
#3

I've never PvP'd, so this is only what I've gathered/overheard/surmised.


In PvP seems a buffed player is going to beat an unbuffed one, pretty much all of the time. There may be exceptions, but as a general rule, it makes sense, or at least is what most PvPers think.


There is a problem with players catching opponents unbuffed, & wiping them out with seeming ease, it seems.


I can quite accept that, as, let's face it,having an extra 2k on all your stats is bound to be a massive advantage.


Buffs & docs tick ppl off ... there's a rather horrid sense in which a buffee seems very much a supplicant when looking for buffs; docs are rare, often overly busy, & too much in demand. I suspect non-docs, for all that they're grateful when they get buffed, are to various degrees less than happy that we as a class are so deciding a factor in the game, be it PvP or PvE.


Hence the calls for nerfing, currently underway on my own server forums btw.


I've been invited to join 2 PvP guilds, once when already in my neutral guild- would never have happened had I not been a doc.


There'd be no calls for nerfing buffs if any player could self-buff (from packs provided by docs maybe) ... you don't see demands for muon to be nerfed, or chef foods either. That's not a suggestion btw, the game is as is it.


Iam.




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Nimhnoid
Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:07 pm
#4






Rotorion wrote:
Ok, I have been a Master Doctor for a little while now. Recently it seems as though people are saying that buffs cause people to be in godmode....blah...blah..... Anyway my point is why do people want to nerf or get rid of something that A. lets them fight high level content like nightsisters and kryats (sp?) B. allows them to not get killed in one shot in pvp and C. would practically destroy the Doctor class if it were nerfed. I'm not saying all Doctors can do is buff, but it is a major part of our class I feel. Personally I am also a TKM and i love to buff myself, throw on some armor and then go defend a base or city. Sure I get my butt handed to me a lot but i still find it fun. Why do people blame something that helps them so much for their problems with pvp? If you dont believe me check the GCW fourms...It seems like every post I read someone complains about buffs, or even armor for that matter. What do you guys think? I love buffs and it's one of the main reasons i chose to become a Doctor. I want to know what you guys as fellow Doctors think about this.






I dont find this as the problem on Bloodfin. Because85% of the playersare either CM/Riflemanor either or. So its your mind that drops. Buffs really dont even matter.


nimh




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HighRoller3K
Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:20 pm
#5

Buffs generally offer you excellent protection from Commandos et al......but as the previous poster mentioned, its still all about the mind.

Message Edited by HighRoller3K on 03-11-2004 03:21 PM



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Vinaddar
Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:02 pm
#6


Yep, buffs are nice for PvP and PvE, but they alone do almost nothing to make you win in PvP. Take any of our Wookie brethren (or anyone in no armor) and buff them to hell and back and see how long they stand up to that 3' tall Trandoshan in 80%+ composite. Stun resistance may be low (0% to around 37%), but every other damage typeis drastically reduced with armor.


Sample: "Hmm, nice shot, you hit me for 2000 damage--minus 50% for AR1 rating, minus 80% for armor effectiveness, minus the PvP damage reduction.....just 12 more shots like that and I may have to use a chage from my Stim B!"


Why are Riflemen so feared now? Because they attack the unhealable Mind pool and have a very nice Stun weapon.


Let us Docs heal Mind damage and the PvP would radically change. 'Course, Since I do not partake in PvP, they can leave it as is and I would not care a bit.


I love my armor, but it is really intended for use against the baddest of bad mobs, not other players and not gnorts and druni. Unfortunately, they made this game with no way to keep the uber equipment out of the hands of the newbs or with any kind of armor progression since we have no traditional"level" system.


Vinaddar

Message Edited by Vinaddar on 03-11-2004 06:05 PM

Rotorion
Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:55 pm
#7

Thanks for the replies guys. Anyone else have an opinion?



Rotorion -=ISO=-
GAT Special Forces Covert Ops
Master Doctor/Master PIkemen
Jjix
Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:02 pm
#8

I don't know, just seems to me people always find something to complain about. After all, buffs are equally available to all. It isn't as if we are talking about class/profession imbalance here. What makes the difference is the planning of the players involved. One player is sloppy and runs into PvP (which, btw, you almost always consciously choose to participate in) without buffs, another takes the time and effort to prepare. Isn't that the whole point? That players who think and prepare should prevail?


I mean, if you bring a CDEF pistol to a battle, shouldn't you be prepared to lose? If you run out in your underwear with no armor, shouldn't you expect some problems (unless you are TKM)? Likewise, if you go out unbuffed, you should expect trouble.


The fact that people are complaining about something that is available to all to me just suggests that the issue here really has little to do with wanting balance in the game -- after all, if it is available to all it is already balanced -- and more to do with the fact that people like to complain. If it isn't buffs it will be armor, then weapons, then skills, you name it.

Rotorion
Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:43 pm
#9

Those where my thoughts too Jjix. Everyone can get buffed and its not very expensive to buy. I think that people just need something to complain about. Thanks for the great feedback everyone.



Rotorion -=ISO=-
GAT Special Forces Covert Ops
Master Doctor/Master PIkemen
Sistere
Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:15 am
#10

Ya pretty much all the PvP I have witnessed is mind attack - now that flame DOT has been nerfed buffs don't aint gonna do much difference when your mind poisoned, eye shotted or mind attacked by a rifleman. Actually it is funny folks should be looking for entertainers if they are looking to do some PvP - not docs. Doc buffs are great for the PvE and attacking turrets, not too relevent in PvP.


Just my own opinion



Chinatown Medical Group, Sistere Allison MD/MChef and Alexi Carlone MD

Wanderhome
BigAke
Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:19 am
#11

(wanted to post this one some hour earlier, but my connection was gone)

well, i think buffs are not the problem with pvp, but they are a part of the problem with pvp.

good buffs allow players to wear high end composite armor without any noticable penalty - such armor is able to increase the wearers effective ham by an order of magnitude (if 90% of all damage is resisted, you need to deal 10 times the damage to have the same effect compared to hitting a person without armor)

now if buffs come out lower people would start to feel the drawbacks of heavy armor, maybe up to a point were they are not willing to wear it anymore.

the downside of have lower buffs and no armor is that pvp battles will typically last until the first hit - after that a player will be incapacitated.

but this is caused by the fact that players deal way too much damage with their weapons (even after 75% pvp damage reduction it is possible to deal above 1000damage per attack)

on the other hand player have to be able to deal such insane amounts of damage to cope with those ham and resistance boosted creatures and npcs (i can understand that a creature like a krayt dragon has insane ham and resistance, but most humanoids should have ham and resists that are at least somewhere near to a player character, unless their are meant to be some kind of super special person)


i personally think that doctor buffs should increase the base ham values by a certain percentage (the exact number would be dependant on the buffpack quality, skill of the doctor etc, just like it is now) - that way those unreal stat migrations (putting everything into mind related stats) will come to an end because players will have to put some points into health and action attributes just to get higher buffs. it will also add to the diversity of the different player races, because buffs will accentuate the different ham distributions of the races instead of making them negligible.



--
basically i dream of a game system that does not need to help NPCs by giving them ungodly amounts hitpoints, resistances and damage, where there is no need for special damage reductions in PvP...
Quandry
Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:05 am
#12

People that complain about buffs being unbalanced are usualy mad that they cant find them fast enough or dont wayt to have to pay for them.


But if you want to have fun with people...Just buff your secondaries. They will think your much weaker and you can fool a few peeps into overting to take care of you. But your specials use nothing...Your mind will look compleatly huge with brandy and the gold if need be...So riflemen will be confused, Also you can regen realy fast. Yeh you can die easyer no doubt but its still fun. I did this one day wen i left my new health packs in my factory by mistake. Ended up finding more overts than normal to chalange me heh. WIth full super composit on you dont realy need the health and action anyway...just the secondaries to ware the armor and still have good regen and no ham use.



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nvoigt
Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:46 am
#13

The problem with most things in SWG is that they don't enhance the character, they make the character. Multiplying my stats by 5 due to doctor buffs isn't enhancing my character. The buff alone is stronger than my character on it's own. Thats a clear imbalance. If I wear Armor, the type of armor decides about the outcome of the battle, not my stats. This way, armor is not enhancing my character, my character becomes next to meaningless compared to the type and quality of armor I wear. Buffed and wearing armor, it's no longer my character that fights, it's his buffs and armor. If you would just take the armor and buffs on their own, I would lose a fight against them should they ever take on a life of their own.


Enhancements should make one stronger, but not to the point that the original strength is insignificant.


On the same train of thought, why have a 75% damage reduction in PvP ? And why has a stormtrooper more HAM then I will ever dream of ? Why not reduce all damage by 75% and reduce all mobs to 25% HAM ? That would finally be one consistent world.



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