Doctor Archive
Thread: Put Medical Survey back on the issues list
Well
Traigus wrote:
Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.
Now that you know the words, feel free to sing along.
See the word choice? This is a "No," and a "go buy novice artisan if you want to /survey /sample."
The first part "This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game." isn't in single quotes because I edited it for grammar, so it isn't the exact words the devs used. But it is 99% the same.
Lets put them together...
This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game... ‘Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.'
Hrmm... seems to be a No to me...
This is the direct and specific answer all 3 medical professions got for the answer to the top 5 (yes it was the same for all 3). Any other wording is elaboration by the respective correspondent at the time. That elaboration is based on discussions with the devs about medical professionals not having access the materials they need to craft (in general, not /servey /sample /harvest specific) in a follow up question period on the answers we were given.
Now that you know the words, feel free to sing along.
See the word choice? This is a "No," and a "go buy novice artisan if you want to /survey /sample."
The first part "This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game." isn't in single quotes because I edited it for grammar, so it isn't the exact words the devs used. But it is 99% the same.
Lets put them together...
This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game... ‘Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.'
Hrmm... seems to be a No to me...
Traigus wrote:
OK, I came back because.. well because Scoooter quoted without reading the quotes he quoted.
Here is the direct dev answer Quoted from an Ok'd source... Which you quoted. Please read it carefully since you didn't when you quoted it.
In response to our Top 5 issues on 12/20/03 Traigus reported the following response: “This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game... ‘Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.’ This holds true for medical advanced professions as well (See Doc and CM Top 5 lists). The devs will continue to monitor this issue, across all medical professions.”
See the single quotes (' ') in there.. that's the dev part.. I'll restate it separately from the parts I added.
Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.
Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.
Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.
Now that you know the words, feel free to sing along.
See the word choice? This is a "No," and a "go buy novice artisan if you want to /survey /sample."
The first part "This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game." isn't in single quotes because I edited it for grammar, so it isn't the exact words the devs used. But it is 99% the same.
Lets put them together...
This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game... ‘Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.'
Hrmm... seems to be a No to me...
This is the direct and specific answer all 3 medical professions got for the answer to the top 5 (yes it was the same for all 3). Any other wording is elaboration by the respective correspondent at the time. That elaboration is based on discussions with the devs about medical professionals not having access the materials they need to craft (in general, not /servey /sample /harvest specific) in a follow up question period on the answers we were given.
My contribution was "This holds true for medical advanced professions as well (See Doc and CM Top 5 lists). The devs will continue to monitor this issue, across all medical professions.” This statment was approved by the devs for release.
I wrote that, that's why it is punctuated without quotes in the origional post (things without quotes belong to the writer not the quoted individual... that's why we have quotation marks).
Zarlor added the future discussion bit. Again though it was a discussion of materials overall (and the economy too). His statemnt was also cleared by the devs for release.
Also re-read Zarlor's post in this thread (specifically the blue edit).
-T
Message Edited by Traigus on 03-24-2004 06:08 PM
remember what I said about "self-important lecturing" and "filtering information" to fit his viewpoint??
Scoooter wrote:
So since it was removed without us bing informed prior and the top 5 vote has started it may not get the attention it needs anyway.
DoctorCoryn wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
So since it was removed without us bing informed prior and the top 5 vote has started it may not get the attention it needs anyway.
it's there (sort of) #77 Medical Harvesting
Hard to say since there is no detail there, however in the past issues lists whicha re not available and threads in the past that dealt with the /harvest command.
Since there is no detail on that one its hard to say. There should be a description of each if all are to properly vot on it though.
Zarlor wrote:
I think you guys are arguing at cross-purposes here. I think what Scoooter is looking for here is the get the Medical "Resources" issue back on the Doc list, although he originally used the wording (and seems to have a preference for the suggested solution to that issue) of Medical Surveying.
That kind of working (and mention of /medicalForage) is what kept derailing the whole issue to begin with in so many Dev responses we had previously gotten.
Basically I think the issue stands as thus. THe current Dev stance on the issue is that the best method for obtaining resources for the medical professions deals with either spending the 15 points to do it ourselves, or to pay an Artisan profession to do it for us. My impression here is that they only recognize that *WE*, as in the medical professions, think there is a problem here. That much they are willing to acknowledge. I made sure to include elaboration of wording that, if approved, would imply tacit agreement to further discuss the issue with us (or with "us" meaning the correspondents representing the other us of the medical professions, at the very least). They approved the wording, so I take that as approval that they promise to enter into a discussion with us (which I am very, very disappointed to say has not happened to this point.)
Now, whether or not ensuring that the Medical Resources issues (notice I'm avoiding the use of Medical Survey there) belongs on the Doc list is still debatable. T has a very good point about loss of opportunity thorugh duplication, but I think Scoooter has a good point that duplication may show more solidarity and push for a certain level of insistence for an issue. It's a complicated position either way you look at it, really. I'm still very much on the fence on it myself.
Z,
I think what needs to beemhisize is that in all practical prurposes it is not a 15 point issue. It is a 24-29 point issue. Lets face it for all practical purposes with only a 64 meter range it can take you 3 hours to find one hot spot unless you get lucky. I know I have done it and that is not fun. To where the other elite crafters have only 6-14 point usage to get to survey 3 or 4.
My impression here is that they only recognize that *WE*, as in the medical professions, think there is a problem here. That much they are willing to acknowledge
Well there is a common sense reason for that and that is because the other elite crafters have no issue because the other elite crafters do not have a huge hit to gete whatevver survey they need to mine what they need.
Basically the crafters based off the medical professions are out of the loop here because of the amount of resource they need. There are other crafters like smuggler that would not consider it an issue, but what they need is highly available. Ours is not.
Another underlying point that may make it clear is that ALL elite crafting professions feel the need to mine their own resources, and not just the medical ones. But they are inherintly given the skill to do so and we are not.
Remember the mining profession was removed from beta because it was boring and would put too much economic power in the hands of just a few people so they made the survey line in Artisan so crafters could just get what they need. They just left one side out of the picture that needs lots of resource. Unlike Artisans also we must master our basic prof in order to even start our elite. You add all that up and we are not on a level playing ground.
Now if the artisan dependency was working as they envision this would not be an issue. But it is not. There is not enough mining by them for us, nor do they sell their skills. And that is the reality of it.
Now although hugely expensive the scout dependency works. But with the fixing of BE and Chef prices have escalateed. But lets face it with what we ask scout and rangers do they have fun at. But we also only require meats for buffs and A-CDRM. But when someone outside of the medical profession does mine our resources (and there are very few) it is far too expensive so yes like all other elite crafters we see the need to mine resources.
I am rambling..lol
Scoooter wrote:
DoctorCoryn wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
So since it was removed without us bing informed prior and the top 5 vote has started it may not get the attention it needs anyway.
it's there (sort of) #77 Medical Harvesting
Hard to say since there is no detail there, however in the past issues lists whicha re not available and threads in the past that dealt with the /harvest command.
Since there is no detail on that one its hard to say. There should be a description of each if all are to properly vot on it though.
Well I should correct myself on something there is a some on this, not much detail though. And what is there pertains to /harvest
Scoooter,
You don't have to convince me of the arguments surrounding the resource issue itself, I'm intimately familiar with them and fully intend to continue pushing the issue as long as it's on at least the Medic Top 5. (Which, of course, it is. 
Likely the /harvest issue is a bit of a leftowver from my listing nad by the above responses we got on our resource issues and Traigus' preferred methodology it should probably not be listed. Not my call to make at any rate, though.
DoctorCoryn:I'm pretty sure the wording on that issue actually happens to be mine. So if it's condescending I certainly would have appreciated some suggestions to correct it when I was making the lists (and since I always tried to keepa listing up for discussion for exactly that kind of feedback.) I would think Traigus would be justas happy to get some feedback onbetter wording for issues as well.
Traigus: See, that's what I thought was happening. It sounds to me like Scoooter is stating that he agrees the core issue itself is the Resource issue (of which /surveyor /sample or any number of solutions offered in the issue description and links are a part). So I thinkit'snot a question of dev response directly toartisan or even scout skill purchasing, but to the core issue of howDocsget resources and if their needs are being addressed in a manner thatdoes not unduly hinder their enjoyment of the game.
Of course then theREAL issue involved in this thread then becomesshould the Resource Issue itself, irregardless of artisan or scout skill considerations, be on the Doc list. Would it be useful to keep that issue pushed in fron of theDevs from several fronts? Or would we be better served by avoiding duplications as much as we can?
Avoiding duplications gives us more Top 5s meaning we might get more stuff fixed.Then againif we avoid duplicationswe have no guarantee that the extra issues that get presented will make any kind of difference to getting the extra stuff fixed. After all the lists the Devs look at from ALL of the Correspondents is already pretty big and stuff that has been on some of our lists from the beginning still hasn't been addressed. So that's where I see the complication of the issue itself here. Both sides, IMHO, have very valid points.
Chickenbone wrote:
Surveying skills belong to Artisans IMHO. You can still master a fighting class and master Doctor with 18 skill pts. left over for either novice artisan or novice scout. You can alternate between these 2 novice professions to survey or harvest avian meat. Surveying with novice artisan is not that bad witha speeder.
This is what I have done, and it works out fine. I'm constantly switching between artisan with surveyI and scout with hunting I. In the era of the speeder, survey IV almost seems like a waste of skillpoints (but of course still acknowledging that it gets the job done much much faster).
Scoooter wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
DoctorCoryn wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
So since it was removed without us bing informed prior and the top 5 vote has started it may not get the attention it needs anyway.
it's there (sort of) #77 Medical Harvesting
Hard to say since there is no detail there, however in the past issues lists whicha re not available and threads in the past that dealt with the /harvest command.
Since there is no detail on that one its hard to say. There should be a description of each if all are to properly vot on it though.
Well I should correct myself on something there is a some on this, not much detail though. And what is there pertains to /harvest
the description has a nice condescending tone typical of our esteemed Correspondent... he obviously has framed this issue as "the crybaby doc community wants this... /sigh"
like i said... "filtering information to fit his viewpoint"
Arcdischarge wrote:
I disagree. This is not an important issue for doctors. Please keep it out of our Top Ten list. Sorry, you have to budget your skill points like everyone else.
Well if this is not an imprtant issue why has it been #1 on the top five for the last 7 months,
Also for those of you tthat say novice artisan ie easy to pick up, yes that is true. But when was the last time you had to find something with a 64m range with no WP goven to you. If you dont get lucky it can take you 3 hours plus to find a 75-90% hot spot.
If you had read all the thread it has been pointed out that this is a clear balance issue that basically places us out of balance with other elite crafters.
The DEV vision is we would use an inter class dependency to get what we need. But that is not working for the following reasons:
1) There are very few artisan only "miners" out there and they are busy gathering like resource for the WS/AS/Arch and not mining organics.
2) The vast majority of the mining is done by elite crafters getting their own resources and they are busy doing their own thing
3) Artisans as a whole do not sell their survey skills because survey is not a fun job
But this thread is not specifically about /survey. It actually has three issues.
1) The /survey issue was the only one that properly trapped the issue of finding resource.
2) The issue was removed removed without clear resolution from the devs. As we all know they may not impliment the solution we choose. but they acknowledge the root issue.
3) The Doctor community needs to be able to choose whether this issue is in the top 10 or top 5 by vote since there was no clear resolution.
I apologize to Zarlor and Traigus as to my emotionally-charged ranting, *pinky truce*
(T, I just ask that you try to avoid the 'my way or the highway' responses... we gettoo muchof that from the devs)