Doctor Archive
Thread: Put Medical Survey back on the issues list
Traigus wrote:
The issue is still open (materials not available enough). That is still on the list (46, 49, 59, 66, 71, 77) Though I would bet large amounts of $$ 77 won't happen for the same reasons, but it has more of a logical connection then /sample, /survey becasue docs do know hgow to cut things up..
We can fight to get more of material X into the world for us to get, (most likely still bought from another player).
The vast majority of Artisan resource vendors are too busy gathering the vast amounts of ore for architects, armorsmiths, and weaponsmiths to deal with gathering on what they believe is a niche market. And those that do just do it to get huge CPU profit that doctors, especially the novice one cannot afford. Since very few do mine it, there is high demand and low supply. The only reason I can keep good resources is because I mine them.
With all respect, Zarlor tends to spin this issue more positive then the stuff I have read from the devs. We won't get /survey, /sample or /harvest. No ifs ands or buts. Zarlor's paraphrases of the dev responses don't convey the total tone of all the stuff we have seen. Don't take them as 100% poof of anything, because by the nature of what we are allowed to post, they aren't complete (no fault of Z's).
Then you need to speak with the devs and get a publishable response that shows us they have looked at the facts and unsderstand the issues of not onlly resource spawns, but the economic issues and the fact that "resource vendors" as a whole are not mining what we need.
But the devs _will_ look into making sure we can get what we need in game (probably though economy, not through / skills). That is what they are tracking.
As I stated above in a previous post another solution could come up to correct it, but the issue stands until something is figured out that will cause us not to have to mine
Don't confuse the root problem, with the solution you want.
The root issue, is docs don't feel they have enough access to the quantity of materials they need. 1 narrow solution is to give docs the ability to get it themselves, has indeed been turned down.
Well right now it may be narrow in your opinion. But right now on many servers if you want good resource you have to get it yourself because artisan resource vendors do not mine organics and those that do over charge.
If the amount of avian meat doubled or tripled on live servers and the prices went down, part of the problem would be fixed with no skill change to doctors at all.
Well on Valcyn the amount of good avian has increased, I would agree with that, but also has the price. Now we only really have 2 meat requirements so we can live with high priced meats. But getting organics ourselves seems to be the only way we will get them. Basically only doctors are mining them and artisans wont sell their survey skills. I am sorry if that appears to be looking "in the now" but we have seen no proposals to fixing this that will work. If people dont mine it it wont be in the economy. And if those non doctors which are few and far between refuse to sell at a fair rate we dont have many choices.
All the medical people[including BEs] and chefs are working with the Rangers and scouts to get creature harvests raised. This is trying to solve the problem without adding Doc skills that step on other professions.
This thread is not about adding /harvest. It is about #1 issue that was removed from the issues list for voting with no complete dev response pertaining to survey.
All the crafting professions are still pressuring for rare resource spawns to be a bit more common (some server have been really hosed on certain types).
These are things that can get changed to work on the root problem (doctors need materials).
-T
There is a key phrase in "The issue is still open (materials not available enough)."
That phrase not only entails the resource spawns themselves, but the ability for the doctor to get a hold of it. The server economies and how Artisans actually use their class show that the vast majority of them do not care to mine it so we doctors must. Many other elite crfters are in the same postiton, but they get base survey, we don't.
The amount of resource spawns is not the entire problem here.
In my judgement, when we have doctors producing 440 strength Stim-B's in factories and making 20x markups, the Devs will think that we don't have a resource gathering problem.
As far as I am concerned the dependency on artisans and rangersworks just fine. It isn't hard to get to know other docs and to exchange WPs... I have an alt that can survey, and I do give waypoints to other docs if they ask. I think that if it's such a problem for you you should just spend the 15 points needed. Yeah it takes a while, but do you want to be able to survey as well as people spending 34 points without spending any points? Please... Do you want to be able to harvest as well as rangers too????
But really, I just think you still haven't got the part where devs said it wouldn't happen anyway...
Songe wrote:
As far as I am concerned the dependency on artisans and rangersworks just fine. It isn't hard to get to know other docs and to exchange WPs... I have an alt that can survey, and I do give waypoints to other docs if they ask. I think that if it's such a problem for you you should just spend the 15 points needed. Yeah it takes a while, but do you want to be able to survey as well as people spending 34 points without spending any points? Please... Do you want to be able to harvest as well as rangers too????
But really, I just think you still haven't got the part where devs said it wouldn't happen anyway...
Well the artisan dependency works for you because you have an alt. Not everyone has or wants an alt. People forget to share waypoints. Even friends with survey may not have the sense of urgency when class 4 comes up.
One of the underlying issues is that ALL elite crafters see the need to mine resource and that is where most of the resource is being mined. There are very few artisan resource vendors becuase Artisan is not a mining class. But there is one set of crafters left out of the loop.
But again, the fact that it works for you because you have an alt does not alter the fact that there is an underlying problem and should not be taken off our issues list to be allowed to vote on. If the community as a whole does not think it would make the top 5 or 10 then so be it. But to have the number 1 issue for 7 months removed from the voting without a valid dev response that the community can see is wrong.
I don't need my alt for it, I know a couple docs who would give me the wps, and I would have used 15 points of mine without any hesitation if needed. But it's pretty obvious that your problem is that you expect things without having to put any effort for it. Ever thought about asking instead of waiting for people to give them to you? Guess what, even if we did get some survey skills you would still have to put some work into getting the resources.
Scoooter wrote:
Well the artisan dependency works for you because you have an alt. Not everyone has or wants an alt. People forget to share waypoints. Even friends with survey may not have the sense of urgency when class 4 comes up.
Read up my friend I cut and pasted the response from the devs in a previous post. It was not no. It was ab acknowledgement of a root issue and they would keep monitoring the medical profession issues.
Zarlor also posted that the answer was not in "no".
The dev responses acknowledge the issue and state thatthey are monitoring the professions. Like I also have pointed out that in itself should not make the issue be removed. To solve the issue will the devs do simething different..maybe..but taking the issue off the radar scope is wrong.
So therefore it should not be removed from the issues list unless the communiity votes it out of the top 10 or top 5.
But since the vote has started and Traigus refuses to make us privy to more official responses other than he says so, it probably wont make the top 5 because he has arbitrarily removed it and the voting has started
Here is the direct dev answer Quoted from an Ok'd source... Which you quoted. Please read it carefully since you didn't when you quoted it.
In response to our Top 5 issues on 12/20/03 Traigus reported the following response: “This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game... ‘Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.’ This holds true for medical advanced professions as well (See Doc and CM Top 5 lists). The devs will continue to monitor this issue, across all medical professions.”
See the single quotes (' ') in there.. that's the dev part.. I'll restate it separately from the parts I added.
Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.
Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.
Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.
Now that you know the words, feel free to sing along.
See the word choice? This is a "No," and a "go buy novice artisan if you want to /survey /sample."
The first part "This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game." isn't in single quotes because I edited it for grammar, so it isn't the exact words the devs used. But it is 99% the same.
Lets put them together...
This would lessen the value of skillpoints spent by other professions. Skillpoint costs are a major balance factor in the game... ‘Skill point expenditure is a basic challenge in the game and all professions have to make such choices.'
Hrmm... seems to be a No to me...
This is the direct and specific answer all 3 medical professions got for the answer to the top 5 (yes it was the same for all 3). Any other wording is elaboration by the respective correspondent at the time. That elaboration is based on discussions with the devs about medical professionals not having access the materials they need to craft (in general, not /servey /sample /harvest specific) in a follow up question period on the answers we were given.
My contribution was "This holds true for medical advanced professions as well (See Doc and CM Top 5 lists). The devs will continue to monitor this issue, across all medical professions.” This statment was approved by the devs for release.
I wrote that, that's why it is punctuated without quotes in the origional post (things without quotes belong to the writer not the quoted individual... that's why we have quotation marks).
Zarlor added the future discussion bit. Again though it was a discussion of materials overall (and the economy too). His statemnt was also cleared by the devs for release.
Also re-read Zarlor's post in this thread (specifically the blue edit).
-T
Message Edited by Traigus on 03-24-2004 06:08 PM
I think you guys are arguing at cross-purposes here. I think what Scoooter is looking for here is the get the Medical "Resources" issue back on the Doc list, although he originally used the wording (and seems to have a preference for the suggested solution to that issue) of Medical Surveying.
That kind of working (and mention of /medicalForage) is what kept derailing the whole issue to begin with in so many Dev responses we had previously gotten.
Basically I think the issue stands as thus. THe current Dev stance on the issue is that the best method for obtaining resources for the medical professions deals with either spending the 15 points to do it ourselves, or to pay an Artisan profession to do it for us. My impression here is that they only recognize that *WE*, as in the medical professions, think there is a problem here. That much they are willing to acknowledge. I made sure to include elaboration of wording that, if approved, would imply tacit agreement to further discuss the issue with us (or with "us" meaning the correspondents representing the other us of the medical professions, at the very least). They approved the wording, so I take that as approval that they promise to enter into a discussion with us (which I am very, very disappointed to say has not happened to this point.)
Now, whether or not ensuring that the Medical Resources issues (notice I'm avoiding the use of Medical Survey there) belongs on the Doc list is still debatable. T has a very good point about loss of opportunity thorugh duplication, but I think Scoooter has a good point that duplication may show more solidarity and push for a certain level of insistence for an issue. It's a complicated position either way you look at it, really. I'm still very much on the fence on it myself.
5th post down from the top.
-T
Songe wrote:
I don't need my alt for it, I know a couple docs who would give me the wps, and I would have used 15 points of mine without any hesitation if needed. But it's pretty obvious that your problem is that you expect things without having to put any effort for it. Ever thought about asking instead of waiting for people to give them to you? Guess what, even if we did get some survey skills you would still have to put some work into getting the resources.
Scoooter wrote:
Well the artisan dependency works for you because you have an alt. Not everyone has or wants an alt. People forget to share waypoints. Even friends with survey may not have the sense of urgency when class 4 comes up.
LMAO you obviously doin't know me and are making assumptions you should not.
Nice that when we are having an intelligent discussion you resort to flame. No one stays a master doc for 6 months without putting a lot of effort in it. Before you make broad flaming assumptions you need to know who you are talking about. Have fun flaming, I am laughing at it. those that know my repon Valcyn are lauging also.
The issue stands.
Nothing should be taken off out list of items to vote unless it is fixed or we have been given an adequite response from the devs.
Not necessarily Traigus. /survey may not be the answer the devs come up with.
The undelying issue is resource gathering. The ones left on the list pertain to specific resource spawns coming up more.
The real issue is in the real server economy most mining is done by elite crafters and there are very few "resource vendors" that cater to the medical professions.
Now all the other elite crafters see a huge need fot mining their resources because of greed and there are just not that many artisan only resource vendors. Also artisans do not sell their survey service because it is just not fun.