Doctor Archive
Thread: Dev Response to Recent Enahancement Med Use Issues (12/02/2003)
Variability generally is listed as a larger issue, actually. And looks like it will likely be addressed wiht an overwrite capability. But that has been in the works and we've known about it for at least a littel bit now.
As for Ds at Master Doc. Generally speaking I agree and the chart listed shows that for Secondary Ds because it is at Master Doc that we get Secondary Ds (hence the listing of 91-92 for those in my suggestions). Primary Ds, however, we get at Doc Crafting 4 so I think they shouldcome in for useage around Med Knowledge 4.
I do hope they finally allow Buffs to overwrite or just reduce the variability. Either way getting buffs for just a little abovetheir listed value while using a 110% med droid, wearing +25% wound/injury treatment BE clothing and being a MD kind of blows.
Zarlor wrote:
Variability generally is listed as a larger issue, actually. And looks like it will likely be addressed wiht an overwrite capability. But that has been in the works and we've known about it for at least a littel bit now.
Imo this is bull**edit**. Ok if you want to nerf something fine but dont nerf items that are already made. Fix those items and then nerf from there.
Now im out 6 crates of items I can't use. How am i to be reimbursed for the resources it took to make those? Some of the compoents aren't available anymore or arent as good.
Well, that's the problem, though. They didn't try to nerf old crates in this way, in fact they normally are pretty deliberate about NOT doing that. As it was they tried to see if they could find some way to fix those old crates, but it is simply impossible to do because of the way the code and that formula work.
Definitely disappointing, but there's nothing to really be done about it. Calling it BS simply implies there was something more to be done about it, but believe me I and the other Corres tried to wrack our brains coming up with any ideas that might help the Devs get around this and fix the crates, but nothing could be done. It just wasn't possible.
Message Edited by Zarlor on 12-03-2003 11:49 AM
Why does everyone always assume they should get the best of the best of a profession, without mastering the profession? I'm so glad the devs didn't give in to the whiners on this one, now Master Doc is *worth* having
sure they could do something they could swap out the old crates for new ones. Or they could put the old code back in for a week and let people extract their crates.
If you can craft something you should be able to use it without being a master.IE Medic 0 0 4 4 you can use and make stim C's. Doc 0 0 4 4, do we get it in the 2nd or 3rd one i forget? You cant use The D enhancements that you can craft without experimenting on them. Why give someone an item if they can't use it without experiementing on it. IF anything they should just move all D's to Master then.
Just pisses me off that i spent the time getting to 4 4 4 0 and I have a master friend who can make me D's but I can't use them anymore. Thats why I hadn't been playing SWG at all the last week. My crate are realtively slow and small crates but still it allowed me to buff when a master wasn't around to give us the real good buffs.
Massanas wrote:
sure they could do something they could swap out the old crates for new ones.
Not feasible. Too many Doctors and too many crates. It just can't be done as it would be a logistical nightmare and while they were doing that nothing else would get fixed.
Or they could put the old code back in for a week and let people extract their crates.
Because they say that wouldn't fix it and only delay the inevitable anyways.
If you can craft something you should be able to use it without being a master.IE Medic 0 0 4 4 you can use and make stim C's. Doc 0 0 4 4, do we get it in the 2nd or 3rd one i forget? You cant use The D enhancements that you can craft without experimenting on them. Why give someone an item if they can't use it without experiementing on it. IF anything they should just move all D's to Master then.
And that's why they've stated they would be looking at the Med Use levels and correct them if need be. Looking at the figures I gave above it looks like (since I agree with you on this) that some of these will need to be lowered (and others raised, for that matter.)
Just pisses me off that i spent the time getting to 4 4 4 0 and I have a master friend who can make me D's but I can't use them anymore. Thats why I hadn't been playing SWG at all the last week. My crate are realtively slow and small crates but still it allowed me to buff when a master wasn't around to give us the real good buffs.
I can sympatize with it and the messages I've sent back and forth with the Devs have convinced me that they sympathize as well. But there really is nothing they can do that could fix this. Or a least if there was something they could do it would take way so much time to do that you likely wouldn't care anymore because after a month you'd be destroying those old crates just to get them out of the way with no fix coming right away. 
They definitely know that more than a few folks will NOT be happy about this and we really did try to give a bunch of options to them to see if they were feasible and could be used to alleviate the problem, including the ones you mentioned above. It turned out that none of them were feasible and we are stuck having to bite it on this one. At least it's a one-time thing, as far as the crates are concerned. And for the issue of Med Use as they are currently being crafted out to be, they've stated that they will review it and I've given them my argument above that states clearly the Crafting and Med Knowledge lines should match up.
It shoudl be noted that in some cases it may not look like the lines match up only because crafting often lags behind the other healing lines. That's a seperate issue, though.
I've got to say I'm not happy about this.. however I don't necessarily disagree agree with this change, but 90s are too high IMHO.. There's already too much stuff in the doc/medic crafting tree that you can make before you can use it, and now this adds to it.
I'm personally tired of the "this is the way it should have been" excuses coming from the development team. If this is the way it should have been they should have fixed it 5 months ago. This seems to be the common cop-out for things that are discovered to be too powerful, after the fact.. FWG5 for example...
Sometimes I get so frustrated at this game I want to just quit it, other times I love it and can't seem to quit playing. Currently leaning towards the quitting part but that'll change I'm sure over the weekend.
Anyway just ranting.. 90s is too high, following the A=50s B=60s, C=70, D=90s is just too much of a jump. Med use is out of whack all over the place, and this just exacerbates it.
Thanks for posting the dev response Zalor at least it's an official nerf now.
That is so wrong. Sous 0,4,4,0 Doctor "Dabblers" are hurt by this while the BH with his Novice Medic that cost a whopping 15 skill points can still use 400 base Stim Pak B. Lovely. Lovely.
Just don't dabbler and your'e fine.
I disagree i think meduse for D's should be in the low80's to guarantee that they can be used by someone with meduse 80. I dropped ch specifically because the meduse was 76, i planned my character around being able to buff my self. This is consideralble time and expense for me, i was ch 4 4 0 4 but i wanted to try something different so i dropped it and scout and went for doc.All while thinking i would be able to buff my self, yet now all of a sudden with no warning the day after i get to doc 0 2 3 0 it is changed. I don't have the points to get to master doc I have just enough points to get to 0 4 3 0, which is what i wanted so i can rez my friends and buff my self. Hell if i had the points i would go for master doc but, i am master brawler and fencer right there its 140 pts add the 77 pts of master medic and all of a sudden you are left with 33 pts so all i can get is 0 4 3 0. Changes like this with no warning, kill planing, most of us plan our characters, i had it planned out so that i can hunt solo if i wanted toor in a group, now all of a sudden, the benefit of going for doc for me is considerably affected.
With regard to the benefit of master doc, which you get for 1 skill point, should be crafting bonus on experimentation and the crafting of D's, as well as the heal bonus that can only be had at master doc. As it is i have to buy my enhace packs which is where the money is at. Without master doc, no one will buy your stuff, Master Doc is where the money is at, but i prefer to hunt. There are plenty of benefits for being master doc.
Pleaseleave the benefit of getting to med use lv 4 alone.
If med use is at say 83 it can be lowered to 80 but the experementation has to be spent on med use instead of power and thus there is benefit of having med use lv 4.
"Definitely disappointing, but there's nothing to really be done about it. Calling it BS simply implies there was something more to be done about it, but believe me I and the other Corres tried to wrack our brains coming up with any ideas that might help the Devs get around this and fix the crates, but nothing could be done. It just wasn't possible."
Nothing could be done? How about they TESTED this before it went live and notified the med community just like they notified the weaponcrafter community, so that the WC'ers could make tons of guns with pre patch stats. Ok they say they couldn't change the "crate" issue (funny how crates of guns retained THEIR pre patch stats when pulled from a crate post patch), but had they at least warned us that D's and their pre patch crates would bump up med use, at least we had the option of removing all our PRE PATCH d's from the crates before the patch went live. Funny how SOE makes sure the richest and most vocal of the crafting professions gets warned beforehand about a coming nerf (so they can prepare and stock up), but to hell with the poor docs that struggle to make a living in the first place.
"The most unfortunate situation here is that these formulas are inextricably linked. The current Med Usage ratings that are being formulated for these Enhance Packs is exactly where they should have always been."
Yah I'm upset so I'm not going to sugar coat it. But I'm calling BS on this flimsy "don't hate us, we fixed something you wanted and by fixing it, another mistake we knew about but didn't EVER mention anywhere, was also fixed".
Zarlor or anyone, have you EVER read from the Dev's at ANY time, them saying that our enhance packs were improperly coded for med use? When we complained about experimenting for ease of use problem (a problem that has been reported and complained about for what.. 5 months now?), did they at ANY time ever say that the problem was related to a reversal of coding (which any monkey could have figured out just by how the ease of use worked.. if you used really crappy materials, med use went DOWN, as opposed to every other med we make where the higher the quality, the lower the med use of the resulting medicine... Besides the blatantly obvious that experimenting ease of use made med use go UP which would tell a 5 yr old that the code was reversed, the fact that quality of materials ALSO was reversed as far as how they work should have tipped them off) and that the med use we were all used to was incorrect all this time also??
We can assume they at least READ our complaints about the ease of use bug, realized that it was reversed, and THEREFORE should they not ALSO at that time noticed that med use of the enhances were NOT what they had meant them to be when they designed the profession and heaven forbid mentioned it SOMEWHERE, to somebody on some post?
Also it's been a while since I've made enhance a's/b's and c's. Can somebody confirm that those enhance packs med use also jumped up? If the coding for ease of use is sooooo intricately intertwined with the resulting med use of enhances (their excuse to get us off their backs about fixing the crate bug on prepatch crates) then would it also not follow that ALL enhance packs med use would be affected? I'm pretty sure that ONLY enhance D's were affected. I also know that at least enhance B's and C's (can't remember about A's) that the ease of use coding reversal also affected those buff packs, yet strangely enough fixing that bug didn't affect final med use on them. *boggle*
In short, I think the dev's introduced a new bug (jacking up D's 20 pts of med use), just like they almost always introduce new bugs when they fix other bugs, and they just can't be bothered to spend the time to fix it correctly or at the very least be honest with us.
Their whole "excuse post" smacks of deception no matter how you read it.
1. IF D's were always supposed to be 90+ med use, why was it NEVER mentioned?
2. IF by fixing ease of use code which is entwined with final med usage, jumped up final med use, why did it not up med use of ALL buff packs.
3. Why can guns made in crates prepatch be pulled out of those crates after the patch and retain their pre patch stats, but not meds?
4. Why were weaponsmiths told of a post patch "nerf" to their product, so they could mass produce thousands of un-nerfed weapons, yet Medics don't get the same consideration?
Does this mean that we should report everyone that ever purchased an Enhance D pack (If they weren't a Master Doctor)?These people were using an exploit for months.
/sarcasm off
- Travin
Thanks for your response Zarlor. I'm not taking it out on you I just think its sloppy planning and coding. If you look at any game over the last 15 years its all the same though. Some of them come out and tell you they had problems and then fix it some screw it up more then nerf it. Thats the way it will always be while we have sloppy code.
They should consider the customer more though and warn us like a previous poster said, warn ALL of us.
Actually all of this should have been done on the Test center. There shouldn't have been any new code that changed the doctors until it was fixed on the test center but then again we get back to my other statement. Theyare SLOPPY.