Doctor Archive
Thread: Please Join Us if You Disagree with the New Experimentation System
Vinaddar wrote:
I cannot believe that TH actually made that post saying that the change to experimentation is what we asked for. What a complete misread that was. The entire crafting community screamed against this proposal the first time as we will again. It sickens me to see how very little they listen. 12 pages strong and growing, I hope that post gets their attention.
Vinaddar
TH has been making statements like that about CH's for a long time. We would ask for one thing and he'd tell the devs something else. In the huge CH nerf around november TH claimed the changes were what every CH asked for. Yet he never asked a single CH. Then when we asked for the removal of the camp restriction to call pets, he gives us something we didn't ask for.
TH constantly takes what people ask for, changes it to suit himself, then gives it to the devs as 'what the players want'.
While crafting has anyone noted what a success renders? A success in crafting should provide a marginal improvement in the experimentation, but it does not. A success in crafting, from my observation, is akin to a failure it actually lowers the stats of the item your experimenting on.
Being both Master Doctor and Master Combat Medic should mean something in terms of crafting. Why should one suffer though endless attempts at creating a schematic which should come quite easily at the level of master?
The metropolis I reside in on Lowca is a research centre, with the crafting food, plus my +125 experimentation for Doctor and +120 experimentation for Combat Medic why should I suffer such meaningless attempts at crafting to achieve a good schematic?
One can get great success after great succes, but once you get a success it destroys all those great success.
If this new system for experimentation addresses and fixes this, then it is a step in the right direction. Though many see this new direction as the incorrect one, perhaps, perhaps not. Either way the Devs are making that step in a new direction in regards to crafting. Whether if it is to yourlikingor not, a change is needed.
Traigus wrote:
Yeah it will lower items.. but mostly the items were not supposed to ever be this good.. This is not a new system.. It is actualyl a fix for a bunch of bugs.. We had it back on TC months ago, but it was pulled back when it uncovered some other nasty bugs. Those buge were fixed, now these fixes to materials are going back in.
Wether we like it or not (i'n not a great fan on a personal level.. but the stuff out there is too good and too easy to make) this is actually a fix for the crafting system, to put it back to where it was intended.
The devs were always surprised when we said we had X item with Y power.. because that was supposed to be uber hard to do, or not be possible at all. All of our equipment is far above what the game systems can handle / was designed for.. Armor, guns, buffs.. all of it.
You can jump up and down, scream, cry, threaten, and anything else you want, but overall it is better for the game in the long run. We are in a huge balance pass, that is setting the foundations for the future of the game, and for the future expansions.
Every overpowered factor that stays will have huge effect over time.
If we do it right now, then maybe in the future, the only thing needed will be to add to the game... but everything is far too high now, and everything is basicaly unblanced and broken because of it.
-T
Oh well then.
/shrug bring it on then.
Traigus wrote:
Yeah it will lower items.. but mostly the items were not supposed to ever be this good.. This is not a new system.. It is actualyl a fix for a bunch of bugs.. We had it back on TC months ago, but it was pulled back when it uncovered some other nasty bugs. Those buge were fixed, now these fixes to materials are going back in.
Wether we like it or not (i'n not a great fan on a personal level.. but the stuff out there is too good and too easy to make) this is actually a fix for the crafting system, to put it back to where it was intended.
The devs were always surprised when we said we had X item with Y power.. because that was supposed to be uber hard to do, or not be possible at all. All of our equipment is far above what the game systems can handle / was designed for.. Armor, guns, buffs.. all of it.
You can jump up and down, scream, cry, threaten, and anything else you want, but overall it is better for the game in the long run. We are in a huge balance pass, that is setting the foundations for the future of the game, and for the future expansions.
Every overpowered factor that stays will have huge effect over time.
If we do it right now, then maybe in the future, the only thing needed will be to add to the game... but everything is far too high now, and everything is basicaly unblanced and broken because of it.
-T
You appear to have totally missed the point I was making. I am not arguing against an act of balance. I am saying that theremay be other undesirable consequences of the proposed system. Great .. it removes some of the bugs .. wonderful .. but if it effectively removes the versatility within crafting then you won't be complaining about bugs because you won't be crafting anymore. You are only looking at one aspect of this change and that is the global change to the power of craftable items. Look a little deeper.
It very well may do that. But we need a fair and stable (un buggy) baseline, before we can make that kind of judgement about versatility.
Once crafting is fixed, then we can go at individual schematics or lines and say "you know, these are too weak, these are ok, and that is downright usellable / busted."
Part of the combat balance is schematics/crafting... but none of them can be tweaked until crafting works in a standard and reliable manner. Without schematics, we have no re-balanced weapons.. without rebalanced weapons, we can't have rebalanced specials... without rebalanced specials, we don't know the meaningful power scale we need for buffs and heals.
We were warned that everything may be unbalanced as they worked through the steps.
I'm afraid you are the one not looking deeply enough here.
We are going back to the fundimentals. This isn't a top level thing.
-T
(Not trying to be mean or anything)
Message Edited by Traigus on 03-05-2004 01:08 PM
Agreed. However, this entire process should occur on test until completely done before being pushed to live. What we will have otherwise is simply a system that's broken in a different way, but still broken and less usable than the old, broken one.
Traigus wrote:
Once crafting is fixed, then we can go at individual schematics or lines and say "you know, these are too weak, these are ok, and that is downright usellable / busted."
(Ack. I didn't mean to make this two posts, really.) Being warned does not suddenly make this process acceptable for use on a live, production server.
Traigus wrote:
We were warned that everything may be unbalanced as they worked through the steps.
Morwen wrote:
Agreed. However, this entire process should occur on test until completely done before being pushed to live. What we will have otherwise is simply a system that's broken in a different way, but still broken and less usable than the old, broken one.
Traigus wrote:
Once crafting is fixed, then we can go at individual schematics or lines and say "you know, these are too weak, these are ok, and that is downright usellable / busted."
It's on Test Center now. That's where everyone's been getting their data from.
Well there is little point in discussing anything really. Your standpoint is that we must change everything whether its good orbad so that we can make things better. Its a win-win situation which is why I guess you are a correspondent. This cycle continues with each and every change in the game and the only thing that really gets addressed are actual bugs and with every change there are more bugs.
We have been through all this once where combat professions were made more powerful and creatures weakened because PVE was considered too difficult. Now we see it completely reversed but this time they are targeting the crafting system as well.
I tire of the politics. I quit CH with the last major change because it became untenable. I enjoy the challenge of crafting and so for the moment I like the doctor profession but I suspect the proposed changes are going to move a lot of people on to a different profession. At some point you are going to say, enough is enough, I am tired of this merry-go-round and simply quit.
I wish you luck with your attempts to make the game better but at some point you have to say enough. I get the feeling that you are more a correspondent than an actual player of the game. That's a pity.
I'm insulted.
I play 17 professions (on different characters, I'm not grinding jedi on any of them). I'd play more, but many of my alts haven't finished starting profession requirments yet... I don't have all the time I want to play SWG.
I may not be the normal (or average) player in SWG, but I am very much a player.
In fact, I give up part of my play time (which is very valuable to me after a 45+ hour work week) to go to TC and test stuff for you. That doesn't count the board time I spend here or on the other forums.
-T
Message Edited by Traigus on 03-05-2004 04:20 PM
I must say, I get really annoyed when the Devs say something will take too much work to code the way we would like it to be. The company I work for recently spent almost 6 figures to fix something that could affectno more than a maximum of 0.008% of our client basewith a realistic number of affected being more like 0.0004% at most. My point being, we didn't tell them that we wouldn't address their concerns because they were A) too small a number to worry about or B) the change would be too time consuming or costly. And I don't believe any of the companies in our industry are as customer conscious as they should be. What does thatsay about companies like SOE?
Anytime a company says they won't do something for reasons like this, it says to the customer that they do not matter.
As far as the changes to experimentation, we know we don't want it and the Devs need to be aware of that. Even top of the line gear + buffs + foods etc will not let anyone stand toe to toe with the nastiest of critters in the game as it is now. I do not want to be penalized as a veteran player because they didn't think ahead of how easily available some things are to newbies now that the servers are growing up.
Add more highend content and fix what is already broken instead of looking to lower the existing craftables.
Vinaddar
Vinaddar wrote:
I must say, I get really annoyed when the Devs say something will take too much work to code the way we would like it to be. The company I work for recently spent almost 6 figures to fix something that could affectno more than a maximum of 0.008% of our client basewith a realistic number of affected being more like 0.0004% at most. My point being, we didn't tell them that we wouldn't address their concerns because they were A) too small a number to worry about or B) the change would be too time consuming or costly. And I don't believe any of the companies in our industry are as customer conscious as they should be. What does thatsay about companies like SOE?
Anytime a company says they won't do something for reasons like this, it says to the customer that they do not matter.
As far as the changes to experimentation, we know we don't want it and the Devs need to be aware of that. Even top of the line gear + buffs + foods etc will not let anyone stand toe to toe with the nastiest of critters in the game as it is now. I do not want to be penalized as a veteran player because they didn't think ahead of how easily available some things are to newbies now that the servers are growing up.
Add more highend content and fix what is already broken instead of looking to lower the existing craftables.
Vinaddar
I disagree competely. It's a logistics issue primarily. There a 1000's upon 1000's of manhours worth of effort that are already scheduled to be invested into this game. Between expansions and all the other fixes going on. At some point you reach a level of effort where it is not feasible to make EVERY single change. Not doing something because the level of effort isn't within the scope of what they can spend on this PARTICULAR change isn't poor customer service... it's effective project management.
And you're wrong about not letting us stand toe to toe with the nastiest of critters. Soloing the Geo Caves was proof enough that the player base as a whole is over powered compared to it's environment.
They already took a 27K HAM krayt with 60% resists to 300K HAM and 90% resists... how much harder can they make the environment? At somepoint they have to bring down the players too.