Development Cycle Archive
Thread: ID#2: Two Changes to Bazaars and Vendors
The devs are consideringto make the merchant profession more important and help DB problems by stopping dablers, business 3 artisans. The problem is that mastering an elite crafting profession takes a lot of skill points. I will assume that most crafters do not want to craft all the time, hence the use of factories. Also, almost all the content of the game is geared towards users being some sort of combat class. Having to master merchant will only limit these players in what they can do in the game.
Below I give some of my ideas where things should go. I do not want the devs to have to ability to cap a vendor to such a low level. However, I do want to the devs to cap what the max vendor item limit is as to make the multiple vendor an asset.
Proposed changes
- Any non merchant withnovice artisancan have one vendor
- Vendors are only purchasable through Merchants and will be treated asdeeds, however after 10 days the vendor cannot be redeeded.
- Merchants can sell any type of vendor to players so all skill levels of merchants will be useful
- Merchants will be able to customize the size limit of the vendor, ie 100, 250, 500, 1000items
- Depending on skill of Merchant the Vendor will have higher or lower maintence cost, better vendors will cost more hourly but a master Merchant will be able keep the low maintence.
- Business line of artisan will reduce vendor cost
- Have a small % of maintence added for each item on vendor. I.E. every 100 items add 10% to maintence.
PadreBook wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
i dont know that your still reading all these negative responses, but hopefully youve gotten the gist that people really dont want a 150 cap
I do.
You may have missed it, but it's looking like there will be an incremental cap based on the merchant skill.
Since merchants CANNOT operate vendors for other people, that means that to be a crafter you will have to be a high-level/master merchant (and hence no skills left to participate in the so-called 'content' of this game), which most people do NOT want to do. The merchant forum is primarily people that want to do that so that is your choir, if you actually polled all crafting professions and even other types of retailers you would get and even clearer picture.
A related question: who among the Development staff actually play primarily elite crafting professions on live servers? I should ask are there any?
Padre
I disagree that we cannot operate vendors for other people. I have operated vendors for several other people and other merchants have as well. It isn't easy. We need better tools to make it easier, but we are hoping to get those changes. For the most part the only thing stopping merchants for operating vendors for other people is finding someone who will work with them.
And I think the consensus was even with an incremental cap, 150 is too low to start....
Thunderheart wrote:
i dont know that your still reading all these negative responses, but hopefully youve gotten the gist that people really dont want a 150 cap
I do.
You may have missed it, but it's looking like there will be an incremental cap based on the merchant skill.
okay already 70 pages of yes or not really no to the bazaar cap increase to 6 k
already 70 pages of no to the 150 cap limit in the state of things
why
because as it was detailed in many mails :
- this will solve the database problem thats for sure but aren 't they other means many good ideas on this thread already.
- this will make businessmen run shops like artisans do and make artisan unable to run shops
- this combined to the bazaar cap increase will lead to a drastic inflation no big deal for hardcore gamers, no big deal for old players, but what about the newcomers with 0 credits, no vehicles, no mount crap equipment, will they have to do 150 low level missions to buy their first mount ?
here is a sum up of the good ideas i came across in this thread sorry if i missed some i dont spend all day long reading the thread and i wonder if somebody has the time to do so 6 more days to go of posts will make a high load of work for you TH.
- What about a price cap on the bazaar depending on the merchant skill ?
- What about a vendor cap depending on the merchant skill ?
- What about fixing filters on the bazaar crates with the kind of product in, dress in dress not with jacket, armor attachment under armor attachment and not under cloth attachment.... ?
- What about highlighting this next item button thingy ?
- What about making merchant a mandatory but EFFICIENT interface between custommers and master crafters creating a sort of player owned market place building for player cities with more vendors than the individual cap of 6-7, with more items on stock for sale than the average vendor, where a merchant could sell the products other make to the mob. what about an auction terminal in these places, what about a exchange terminal in these places to make the merchant / crafter deals more flexible.
- What about a new terminal in cities dedicated to ressources sales, working with the simple process of stocking a whole container of ressources at once inside, from 50 to 100000 units and setting a price per unit, want 1500 unit pay what you have to and the terminal realeases the amount of units you bought, end of 2 hide units for 3000 credits end of 10 stacks of 600 hide for 3000 unit, convenient for everybody including the database, less stacks, less scam offers, a real tool for dedicated hunters and surveyors, convenient for the crafters, cut the ressources database to 30% of what it is now ?
- What about increasing the bazaar fees in cities like theed , coronet and high lag cities, drive people back to the other cities ?
- What about bundle offers, convenient for filtering engines, convenient for custommers, convenient for tailors and armorsmith especially, a whole armor set buy it all or buy nothing. a whole uniform....
- What about stock crates put a crate of 25 rifles on the same type on a vendor, but custommer can buy them one by one allows people to stock a lot of products in one slot of the merchant instead of needing 25. isn t it possible to make this measure improve the database issues as well ?
- What about wharehouses structures ?
- What about preventing people from loading a vendor as a stocking armoire instead of using it like it should ?
- what about getting rid of people setting entrance fees with no vendor in their places ?
- what about getting rid of galactic map advertising if the vendor is not stocked or adding an out of stock label on it ?
- with all the previous measures why not capping the vendors to 150 items as a starting item count for novice businessmen, it does not seem so odd finally and would then bolster the merchant profession without all the drawbacks detailed in the previous 70 pages if only some of this ideas where developped.
Scrofule chimaera
if you liked it help the moderator and vote for it, if you dont like it help the moderator and answer it ?
Thunderheart wrote:
i dont know that your still reading all these negative responses, but hopefully youve gotten the gist that people really dont want a 150 cap
I do.
You may have missed it, but it's looking like there will be an incremental cap based on the merchant skill.
With all respect -- no. You don't. People are proposing this out of desperation, for the most part -- NOT because it's something that they actually want, or that they actually have wanted. I'll concede that it's better than the alternative, but even so, you are putting crafters in which they can do very little else but craft and stock their vendors.
I signed up for this game because the skill system appealed to me; it meant that I could have a multi-faceted character, something that very few other online RPG's permit. It appealed to me because I could enjoy the competitive-business aspect of online gaming (which apparently means that I'm creating one of these undesirable monopolies) as well as have some fun in combat with my friends. Even if this change is linked to the merchant tree, it's going to make this far more difficult -- if not impossible.
And while we're at it, this is going to hit your casual players (like myself) the hardest. That, of course, was another appeal of SWG for me; I do not have unlimited gaming time as others do, I do not have time to spend restocking and restocking and running endless custom orders for those who've walked into my shop and found my vendor all but empty. The 'endgame' notion of Jedi has already been rendered nearly unattainable for the casual gamer. Now you're making crafting nearly as inaccessible.
Thunderheart wrote:
You may have missed it, but it's looking like there will be an incremental cap based on the merchant skill.
You might make the increased bazaar price cap palatable with a merchant skill controlled bazaar cap as well.
Limit newbies to a single auction on the bazaar, so they can learn what selling is about, and cansell that prize drop.
Give 5 more at novice artisan, and add one per box up business and in merchant, with a big bonus at Master.
This would clean up the bazaar a lot, as novice artisans and newbs won't fill it with worthless items. It would keep those skill free minersfrom selling at retail on the bazaar, and make them wholesale to merchants to keep up their sales volume. It encourages other artisans to sell wholesale more often as well, especially with the item cap on their coke machine.
I would just love to be able to find things period. If I want a certain type of ore, I hate wading thru 10 pages of crap to find it. Which means I would be happy if the bazaar had better search or sort methods.
Or a intergalactic net, where vendors can (for a fee) log their items their and people can use these guides to mfind what they want. Some people may enjoy visiting 50 shops that advertise clothing/armor/weapons/resources but I just want to find one that had what I need at a reasonable price.
Hell if you added this system, it may even drive prices down if players can shop via nets. They may have to travel to the locale, but they can see who has what at what prices...
AudioOrgana wrote:
I think the point is, many of us non-merchants are worried about it.
I've flirted with merchant on and off - it does have it's benefits, but the skill point cost is just too steep for me. So I did what the game seems to want - I contracted with a merchant who places an additional vendor at my location so I appear on the world-map, and he placed a tent for me.
This is for the "bells and whistles" the profession has - but limiting non-merchants to 150 items requires that in order to simply function, many crafters would have to pick up merchant.
Why? Because having a merchant list items for you is a huge pain - you get no control over anything, no emails about sales, no way to update your own merchandise, etc. So unless you get someone to buy them wholesale off you and resell them, it's a situation that is annoying at the least.
TH (and fellow players), if you're reading -- Audio has some good points. But instead of taking his cautionary remarks as a cue to back off on the changes, the DEV's working on this should actually be looking forward.
What sort of robust economy are you after? Currently, when it works in SWG (and in most other MMOG's--ATITD not included), the player economy has a very limited depth. It is usally broad, like a village with tradesmen knowing most their customers by name. Production and sales all happen under one roof. This model works, but it is hardly reminiscent of an advanced post-inudstrial sci-fi economy.
By separating production from sales, you are moving forward into a deeper and more complex economy. Instead of "contracting with a merchant" as many do now to have them simply place a vendor, the proposed system will favor a merchant being the active party and actually buying items wholesale from a variety of producers.
Basically, the merchant class will become the official economic middleman class of the game. This could be a great move in a unique direction for MMOG economies adding some more gamesmanship to economic players, especially if production lines become more cross-crafter dependent in the future of the game.
But as Audio hints at, the trading tools are incomplete and tedious since we players cannot always meet face to face for large open trades and deliveries from producer to distributor. As a remedy, I propose that you look at the vendor as the Merchant to Customer tool for transaction while introducing another Merchant employee--for now calleda Stockkeeper with the following functionalities:
Thunderheart wrote:
i dont know that your still reading all these negative responses, but hopefully youve gotten the gist that people really dont want a 150 cap
I do.You may have missed it, but it's looking like there will be an incremental cap based on the merchant skill.
Please reconsider. If the beginning cap is too low, you will be forcing every tailor who wants to run their own shop into the merchant profession. And even those of us who choose to be merchants will still have to use most of our available vendors in order to just run one decently stocked shop.
I'm a Master Tailor/Master Merchant, but I run several other shops unreleated to my clothing. Anyone who spends the skillpoints in merchant shouldn't be forced to use all of their merchant skill supporting one shop. That's just ridiculous.
So the tailors who want no merchant skill could just find merchants to sell to. But that won't work either. With the cap, no pure merchant would want to waste vendors on a high-maintainance, low-profit shop for clothing. They'll just sell things that they can easily store in crates and restock, not something fussy like clothing that requires a high selection and a lot more work. So this will actually have the effect of creating the monopolies you want to prevent.
Thunderheart wrote:
i dont know that your still reading all these negative responses, but hopefully youve gotten the gist that people really dont want a 150 cap
I do.You may have missed it, but it's looking like there will be an incremental cap based on the merchant skill.
Will we be able to master Merchant then drop it and still keep the higher cap similarly to how we can drop Merchant and keep the extra vendors?
Lefty73 wrote:
AudioOrgana wrote:
I think the point is, many of us non-merchants are worried about it.
I've flirted with merchant on and off - it does have it's benefits, but the skill point cost is just too steep for me. So I did what the game seems to want - I contracted with a merchant who places an additional vendor at my location so I appear on the world-map, and he placed a tent for me.
This is for the "bells and whistles" the profession has - but limiting non-merchants to 150 items requires that in order to simply function, many crafters would have to pick up merchant.
Why? Because having a merchant list items for you is a huge pain - you get no control over anything, no emails about sales, no way to update your own merchandise, etc. So unless you get someone to buy them wholesale off you and resell them, it's a situation that is annoying at the least.
TH (and fellow players), if you're reading -- Audio has some good points. But instead of taking his cautionary remarks as a cue to back off on the changes, the DEV's working on this should actually be looking forward.
What sort of robust economy are you after? Currently, when it works in SWG (and in most other MMOG's--ATITD not included), the player economy has a very limited depth. It is usally broad, like a village with tradesmen knowing most their customers by name. Production and sales all happen under one roof. This model works, but it is hardly reminiscent of an advanced post-inudstrial sci-fi economy.
By separating production from sales, you are moving forward into a deeper and more complex economy. Instead of "contracting with a merchant" as many do now to have them simply place a vendor, the proposed system will favor a merchant being the active party and actually buying items wholesale from a variety of producers.
Basically, the merchant class will become the official economic middleman class of the game. This could be a great move in a unique direction for MMOG economies adding some more gamesmanship to economic players, especially if production lines become more cross-crafter dependent in the future of the game.
But as Audio hints at, the trading tools are incomplete and tedious since we players cannot always meet face to face for large open trades and deliveries from producer to distributor. As a remedy, I propose that you look at the vendor as the Merchant to Customer tool for transaction while introducing another Merchant employee--for now calleda Stockkeeper with the following functionalities:
* A vendor like entity for INCOMING orders.
* No outgoing orders allowed--no postings FROM the merchant on the stockkeeper
* A scaled incoming volume of items EQUAL to the number that the Merchant owner can post on a vendor (if a merchant can post 300 on any of his vendors, he can recieve a total of 300 items on any stockkeeper)
* Offers to the Stockkeeper are not related to the cap on "offers to a vendor/items up for auction"
* Like a building, the Stockkeeper has a permissions list similar to the entry list on a private structure, which prevents random unknown players from filling your Stockkeeper with 150 CDEF's that you don't want to sell (if you are buying items wholesale, you should at least be in email contact with your supplier)
* Allow theproducer posting items on the stockkeeperto post informationas if it were posted for sale on a vendor including item description. This information would transfer to any vendor owned by the Merchantin the same building if the Merchant player opts to use a "transfer to local vendor withXX% or XXcredit valuemarkup"button on the stockkeeper interface. Items, such as crates to be broken up, could also be paid for by the merchant and accepted as an available item.
Basically, with this additional tool along with the proposed vendor caps, a Merchant could now recieve large volumes of incoming wares from producers, easily markup prices, and turn around and make them to the public at large.
If you're reading TH, do you haveany thoughts on a merchant tool likethis?
Thanks.
How, exactly does this encourage monopolies?
By the way, it looks as though Word HTML strikes back, so I can't quote you Thunderheat.