Carbineer Archive
Thread: I still don't get why ppl cry for BH nerf ? Plz read from my experience before flaming =]
So far i have done quiet a few things with my char. Carbine, rifle, Pistol, ect... to try them all out a little bit. The main thing i don't get is why carbineers,riflemen,pistoleers think they should be = to a BH. After playing with various weapons and pvping quiet a bit this is what i have learned.
1. Through die hard playing i could hit a weapons skill 4 in the marksmen tree in a day. There fore the following day i could work on and become a pistoleer, carbineer, or riflemen. Heck when jax were still bugged i could hit it in a few hours. Do become a BH requires alot more work. I myself am still not one yet. But i have been able to easily become a carbineer, pistoleer, riflemen, within a day. The main thing that slows a BH down is having to master marksmen, scout and on top of it all get 40k combat exp which is no easy task. Like i said, i am still not a BH but have had no problem becoming any of the other proffesions within a couple of days.
2. In pvp i can kill BH's even though i am not a BH myself. Granted i will admit it is hard as hell and normaly the BH will kill me but with tactics i have found out you can put up a good fight vs a BH as a specialized proffesion such as a pistoleer,crabineer, riflemen..ect. The problem is imo that ppl who are these professions fighting a BH think they should be able to win by spamming nothing but Bodyshot,legshot, or head shot all day.
3. Ppl cry about the BH knockdown ?? yet carbineer, pistoleer, riflemen all have an attack like this. I don't get it.
4. Each person can learn 3 skill trees and dabble in a fourth. Yet for some reason ppl think that a class that has to use all 3 of their trees to become a master in should be = combat wise to a class that only has to use 1 tree to master. Now think about that for a minute if you will. A person who is a Mater BH can train a pistoleer skill or 2 and thats about it. Yet a pistoleer carbineer ect could still train 2 more. So for example you could have a Master Pistoleer/Master Medic/ Master Combat medic ( imo sounds like a very deadly mix ). In which case you would do awesome dmg, and be able to heal yourself np in the middle of the fight.
5. I think people in this game are crying nerfs a bit to early. As no one has realy maxed out all there skills points yet. So if you come across a BH and get owned it happens. Come back though when your maxed in skills like my example above and i bet it become a pretty fair fight.
6. What did ppl expect ? BH is the hardest class to obtain and every skill it has is for fighting. Devs even said before the games release that the BH would be the best fighter in the game next to jedi. Why are ppl so shocked that this is true ?
7. Since a BH has to use all his skill trees to become a master BH he is the ONLY class in the game that is purely augmented for combat and nothing else. Why should a BH have a hard time vs a Master carbineer who only used 1 tree to train his combat skills and the rest for crafting and entertainment ?
I guess in the end what i am saying is please sit down and take a look at what you are all crying nerf for. And better yet if you have the patience do what i did. Test out the professions and see what i mean for yourself. =] I know this is destined to get flamed but this was from my own experiences in game and like i said i am not even a BH.
NegativeOutcome wrote:
3. Ppl cry about the BH knockdown ?? yet carbineer, pistoleer, riflemen all have an attack like this. I don't get it.
4. Each person can learn 3 skill trees and dabble in a fourth. Yet for some reason ppl think that a class that has to use all 3 of their trees to become a master in should be = combat wise to a class that only has to use 1 tree to master. Now think about that for a minute if you will. A person who is a Mater BH can train a pistoleer skill or 2 and thats about it. Yet a pistoleer carbineer ect could still train 2 more. So for example you could have a Master Pistoleer/Master Medic/ Master Combat medic ( imo sounds like a very deadly mix ). In which case you would do awesome dmg, and be able to heal yourself np in the middle of the fight.
6. What did ppl expect ? BH is the hardest class to obtain and every skill it has is for fighting. Devs even said before the games release that the BH would be the best fighter in the game next to jedi. Why are ppl so shocked that this is true ?
7. Since a BH has to use all his skill trees to become a master BH he is the ONLY class in the game that is purely augmented for combat and nothing else. Why should a BH have a hard time vs a Master carbineer who only used 1 tree to train his combat skills and the rest for crafting and entertainment ?
Just picking a few out that I see a lot and think are poor arguments.
First off, 3: Underhand shot is a first tier skill in their profession, making it easy and fast to get. It's also the only knockdown in the game that dizzies in addition to knockdown (from my understanding, some random obscure class may also get a dizzy knockdown, in which case there's a problem with that, too), causing the opponent to not be able to get up from that one move. Also, we carbineers complain loudly about this one because ours is the least damaging knockdown by far -- and to be honest, effect moves like knockdowns should really be low damage to start. Posture change and knockdown should never be spammable as the means to not only debuff/prevent retaliation, but the sole source of damage as well.
4: The issue I have with this argument is that non-hybrid professions have two options to truly augment their attacks: smuggler (and only if you're a pistoleer) and creature handler. Any other classes are redundant to a weapon-based class, as they're only more weapons. And don't try to suggest medics,how much gain do I get from being a medic if I'm two shotted anyways? And if you think that doctor is a better example for HAM buffs, well, I can buy them anyways without spending points at all, and so can the BH. I'd accept this argument as a good one (that non-BHs have other options to gain combat power with their higher number of available skill points) if there were more professions that really complemented the elite weapon-based professions available. Otherwise you're saying that in order to be effective I need to either be a BH, or a CH/elite combat combo, which is unacceptably restricting and unbalanced.
6: BH is the hardest profession to obtain. Sure, if we all quit playing when we reached master, this would be a concern. But in a game where we max out our characters in like 2 months, but expect to play for years, this falls on deaf ears unless we who took 'easier' paths to max out get something else we can do with the xp we get afterwards. The simple fact of the matter is, everybody will max out their character, and time invested isn't that different. A lot of people act like a Bounty Hunter is mastering first one profession, and then another. They're not. I can speak from several friend's experience when I say that by the time they get the combat xp to enter BH, they've finished the scouting stuff just by doing scouting things along the way. It's not like you're either working on scout or you're working on marksman. You kill stuff for marksman, throw a trap in the process, then harvest for scouting xp, and heal up in your camp. We who don't do scout take just as long for the kill, and then longer healing up to make up for the couple seconds you spent running around harvesting.
Also, I'd like a link to where Devs said that BH would be the strongest profession. They may have said "hardest," but I've never seen anything to indicate relative power.
7: Tell me how your time sitting in tents has been combat training? Or how your time in combat leading up to BH (and thus throwing traps and hunting creatures to harvest) has given you such great experience in fighting humanoids that you suddenly become supposedly super-elite people-killers. I love that argument, it makes me laugh.
1. The bounty hunter prerequisite is not the punishment that you make it sound like; scouting and marksman mastership are extremely useful. It's not like those skill points dissapear and you dont get anything for them. You get the bounty hunter missions, scout mastery, marksman mastery, and elite level mastery of every common weapon type plus a unique weapon type. If they made you study entertainer and artisan you might have something to complain about.
2. Bounty Hunters aren't Assassin's. They're detectives and hunters.Han Solo doesn't get killed in 15 seconds of combat, he gets tricked and captured. There is no reason that they should be Uber in pvp. A pistol is a weapon designed for killing people. Same with machine guns which is what carbine resembles the most. Pistoleers and Carbineers should therefor be top notch mankillers. If any class should be uber at killing people it would be commandos, not the bounty hunter.
3. The BH knockdown comes cheap and does big damage, the opposite of the carbineer knockdown.
4. A carbineer who dedicates an entire elite tree to mastering only one weapon and whomasters the same two base trees as the bounty hunter gets less stat bonuses. That's BS. It's illogical and unbalanced. What part about mastering animal trapping do you think makes you a great shot with a carbine? If you only got this level of mastery of 1 weapon no one would complain, but to have it in pistol, carbine, and rifle is over the top. Methinks too many devs are playing BH's. Funny cause it was the totatl opposite in AC2.
5. They don't have to nerf bounty, they can raise carbine to a more reasonable position.
6. BH isn't the only multi tree requirement class in the game. Scout points come free after every kill or while you're afk camping. And if the devs said they were going to make one class arbitrarily unbalanced then they screwed up and they should fix it.
7. Commandos spend more points on combat than bounty hunters do. Scouting is not a combat tree. BH's only take 2 combat trees, marksman and bh. And part of the BH tree is dedicated to investigation. The class is only about 60% combat based versus the commando which is 100% combat based. The carbineer with marksman and combat mastery has 12 more dedicated carbine skills than the master bounty hunter. Thats why they should be better at using a carbine. If you went to school and took beginner level courses in 3 disciplines, they wouldnt give you a PhD in all 3 because poor you had to take the prerequisites.
Even when they finally get around to balancing this game the bounty hunter will still be a formidable opponent because he can switch combat styles on the fly to target any opponents weaknesses. It will just require actual skill to do so. No reason to stack the deck, there are already more bounty hunters running around out there than there are marks. When you have played a bunch of MMO's it becomes obvious thatpeople flock to the unbalanced overpowered classes. The bounty hunter job market is going to be absolutely flooded with cheap labor. Look at how many creature handlers are running around...nuff said. Nerfing or Buffing, either way just balance the game.
If you make Master Pistoleer = master bounty hunter , then what about
Master Pistoleer/Master Creaturehandler/Medic/entertainer ? That is alot more powerful than a Master BH, get real guys.
Oh, and i saw someon post that underhand shots does dizzy too.,ROFL.... fire knockdown does dizzy.
1)Marksman mastery is useful, and it does help to have those accuracy bounus. However to say the scouting tree is usefull.... only explortion is useful. Tents don't help kill things, traps don't work on people, and harvest hides does not put my mark down.
Also you as a master carbineer can get very dangerous combo. What about master Carb and Master Ch, Master carb Master Tk, Master Carb Master ranger. Or just don't master any other professions just take a skill line from them. You can also become a very versitale combatant. When the defense vs ... skill start to work, then you can have stacks of defenses versus your heavy offensive BH opponenet. You could potentially master mark and carbine and the defense line of the other 2 weapon professions.
2)I disagree, Bh are assassians, they hunt and kill humanoids. Cabineer and other are specialist in there respective weapons. I take that to mean that they are good all around with the carbine, as there are in the game. They understand the Carbine's offensive, defesive, and support abilites and very verstatile with that weapon. Bh on the otherhand understand how to use the weapon to most effectively kill a person. Outside of that there useless. Bh should be the best at kill people, or humanoid npc as I belive that is there profession. In this game there is not capturing the mark, there is only killin.
Also I feel that commando are tank, walls, AT-AT killers, not people. They deal in high explosives, heavy weapons, and other tools to cause massive area affect damage. I disagree that they should be expert at killing people.
3)The BH knockdown may be superior to the carbine knockdown, in fact i hope it is. But to say that it comes cheap, i disagree. Kaffis says that because it is a first teir skill then it comes easy that is far from the truth. I'm not even novice bounty hunter. But by the time i get there (i'm waiting on the 40k combat exp) i will be able to have novice pistoleer and 3 other skill in that tree. That just to get to NOVINCE BOUNTY HUNTER. Let's not mention get to that easy first teir skill of pistol. The same can also be said to the carbine. Let's not to mention i had to master scout and marksman. You can not compare the time i takes you to get to you knockdown, to the time it take to get to my knockdown. Cause you'll get it there first all else being equal. Anybody who says that the time it takes to be a bounty hunter is a joke and we should not care to much about it, has not tryin to be a BH. it takes a week of decent playin to get to your carbine specilization. You are then in you profession, you progress quite quickly and be able to take on decent creature and have a chance at pvp. I have been playin since July 4 and i have not yet reach nov. Plus even assuming that i could get to nov in the same time that you can. How many skill points have i spent getting there, how many have you spent. I love being a medic and CH but I can only scratch the surface of both, with the left over skill points.
4)This point upsets me quite a bit as both carbineer and pisotleer focus only on the 2, let me repeat 2 stats that we are better at them in. Maybe you guy don't see all the other stat bounus you get, def vs etc, accuarcy while etc...... more skills, melee defense. Does that disapper or something. I'm sorry if I come off upset, But what happen to all of that?? Does that not matter or something??
5)I agree all those extra that you guys have should have more signafacnts, your defense should be higer and such. BUT a BH should constanly kill humanoid and player far easier then any other prfessions, well may not that far, but they should have a advantage.
6)Bh is highest cost in skill points then any other professions. Forgive but generally the more you pay for something the better it should be. Bh are very cookie cutterish. There is only so much you can do with 33 skill points. I feel they should be extremely well it what they do. What do they do? KILL PEOPLE.
7)This was written a little wierd on NegativeOutcome part. I belive what he means is you guys only spend a few of your skill point on your profession, and that you can be a crafter, or CH, or whatever.
However I do agree the game needs serious balancing. Make the pre req for bounty hunter what they are forces the profession to be what it is. Two profession compare to you one skill line to get to nov. ? Can you honeslty say that's fair? Say you were better then me in everthing. You then pick up Tk. So know you have double the defenses and twice the power. Is that fair you can then pick up medic and be able to heal you self? How is that balanced in you eyes.
Guys,
Let's also keep something else in mind: not all Bounty Hunters are JUST BH's. I am really a Carbineer (only the tier 4 boxes left and I plan to master it) with some BH boxes tossed in((all of the carbine line). Now, I consider myself a BH but when I dust someone in a duel and they come running here to call for my nerf, well it just isn't accurate.
So much of this BH nerf craze is due in large part to experiences in duels and/or PvP. This is a separate issue, that PvP is too quick and something needs to be done. Well, let's wait and see what effect well-made high level armor/shields have. Let's wait and see what kind of defensive buffs we can get from skilltapes applied to master tailored clothing. It is silly to be screaming nerf this early. Hell, I have been playing this game since the start of Beta3 and I still don't know what an elite carbine looks like (I didn't buy one off the tool dispensers like I should have DOH). Some of it is due to lower level folks spying someone taking down a mark in town and asking, "Now why can't I do that?"
There are a number of answers to that questions: they might be MUCH higher level than you, they most likely have a MUCH nicer weapon that is sliced and has a power-up applied, they are using spice, they are using food, they have nice skill enhancements on their gear/clothing, THEY MIGHT JUST BE BETTER AT THE GAME THAN YOU!
*sigh* I am SOOO dam sick of defending the BH profession. Leave it alone people.
First, it's not that hard to get to Bounty Hunter. Stop making it sound like have to play 24/7 for 2 months.
Second, just because you chose Bounty Hunter and Boba Fett was bad ass in the movies doesn't mean you get to be the most powerful character. You must escape from your own mind that YOU believe bounty hunter should be best and are trying to rationalize why.
Lastly, where there is smoke, there is fire. All the people running around saying bounty hunters are supposed to powerful cause they take alot of points (points aside, it takes less than 2 weeks for any experienced player to get to bounty hunter) shows the class is too powerful. They are saying it is, they are saying it should be that way.
But remember, you aren't SOE. In the end, your mental vision of what your character should be doesn't matter. Game balance does and that is where SOE will take this debate. You pay the same$15 a month everyone else does. You are foolishly admitting you are powerful and should be all powerful. Duck now...the nerf bat is coming.
I was once a near master Bh, i had IV carbine and III pistol and III lighting cannon.
From my experience you know what i found? having to loose all your skill points to get BH stinks. There are so many other profesions i'd like to look at, mabye be, but as a BH you have to only be a BH. Those people who think Bh's are overpowered and what not. Look at what they are giving up.
If they master their tree they have 33 points left over. 33! that's nothing. The things Bh gets are well worth the costs yes. But in my opion they werne't. I wanted to be more diverse, have other skills. Heck i can master carbineer and pistoleer and still have more points left over and be decetn in combat. Sure underhand shot is good, but burstshot does more damage than it... Everyone has what they want to be. The Bh's give up ALOT to be Bh's, pretty much all they can do. For that the skills they get and the enhancements they get are about even in my book.
I was a BH and quit becasue i couldn't do anything else. Those who want to go 100% combat character that'sf or you. people who want to have combat skills AND do other things go wtih the individual trees. That's my recomendation to this. Leave Bh alone its fine.
As someone who is spec'ed Bounty Hunter Carbine IV and a Master Carbineer I have a news flash for you all:
You should STOP asking for Bounty Hunter to be nerfed! All the arguments you use against the Bounty Hunter will be used against Carbineers in a heartbeat the second the Bounty Hunter gets a nerf! Carbineer has 2 64m knockdowns just as the BH does, they will be the next thing to go if not going at the same time.
Your going to say but the Fire Knockdown does dizzy:
WHO CARES! If I use Charge shot it is going to take you 2 of my shots to stand back up anyway and if they are Burst2, Scatter2 or Crippling Shot it is not going to matter one lick if you were dizzy before you died or not.
This is not a slam at anyone but the vast bulk of the people I read asking for many of these nerfs are realitivly young characters or people that are talking about having, Medic, Entertainer, CH, and Artisan skills.
A character with a pure combat build is always going to wipe the floor with you and if the game gets nerfed to the point where a player can shoot over his shoulder while building a driod and kill a Bounty Hunter or Master Carbineer is the day that you will see these classes leave the game.
I know some of the Carbineer shots are not working currently and that needs to be fixed, far better to focus on what needs to be fixed than screaming to nerf a class, becasue they are really screaming about the Carbine (Ranged Knockdown) not the BH.