Carbineer Archive
Thread: Carbineer skills vs BH skills
The comparison which is actually relevant to the argument is
Number of CARBINE SKILLS EARNED at mastery:
Bounty Hunter (Scout/Marksman/BH Mastery) : 12 including novice+ master BH and novice + master marksman
Carbineer (Marksman/Carbineer mastery) : 24 including novice+ master Carb and novice + master marksman
Camping, rifling, investigation etc. etc. etc. do not merit superior speed and accuracy with a carbine. A jack of all trades should be just that.
This argument becomes even more important now that the AOE KD skill which was the strongest ace in the carbine deck has been significantly reduced in power.
Fuzby wrote:
If you want to be equal to Bounty Hunters, than they should remove the pre-requirements to become a Novice Bounty Hunter. Lower the skill point cost from 160 to 35 then we can talk.
Novice Bounty Hunter . . . . . . . . . 160 Skill Points
Novice Commando . . . . . . . . . . . . 106 Skill Points
Novice Squad Leader .. . . . . . . . . . 78 Skill Points
Novice Creature Handler . . . . . . . . 49 Skill Points
NoviceCarboneer . . . . . . . . . . 35 Skill Points
"Keep THAT in mind when you call NERF".
This is the absolute dumbest argument in all of SWG, and every BH uses it.
Explain how 14 points in Harvesting should make you better at a carbine than a carbineer
explain how 14 points of exploration should make you better at a carbine than a carbineer
explain how 14 points ofTrapping should make you better at a carbine than a carbineer
explain how 14 points ofPistol should make you better at a carbine than a carbineer
explain how 14 points ofRifle should make you better at a carbine than a carbineer
explain how 14 points ofcamping should make you better at a carbine than a carbineer
explain how15 points ofnov scoutshould make you better at a carbine than a carbineer
Explain how fast you can move up the cabine tree and get better stat's and moves than a carbineer.
Apollo
See the true problem isn't that the BH are too powerful, its that pistoleers and carbineers are not working correctly. Now the problem with pistoleers is that they are way to effective on their hits and attacks over therange of 25 and above. If their target is anymore then 40 meters away from them, they should be missing all the time. Now for us, its just that too many of our skills aren't working, I mean come on if more then 5 of our specials seem to be doing nothing at all or something that it shouldnt be doing or that our stat bonus are unknown to be or not to be working then obviously we aren't going to be able to take on BHs or any other class n that matter. I feel once they fix us we should easily be able to handle a BH in a strickly carbine fight.
BHs were meant to be superior by their tactics and ablitity to be effective in any range. If they are fighting a Carbineer then they just you a scatter and get in close, or stay faraway and hit us with the LLC. Thats the whole reason why they are skilled in long, med, and close range weapons. Now I think we need to drop the whole f**king why are the BHs better then us in carbine crap because thats all the devs see when they log into our forum. We should all be just spamingthe devs like crazy about our specials that don't work and lack of defense mods so that we go out there and be able to kicka** in PvP
Maller Malice
Novice Carbineer/Master Architect of New Aldera, Tatooiner Starsider
Yeah, riflemen are pretty nice for PvP, but they have some fatal weaknesses:
1. No Knockdown
2. 3x melee damage
I watched a pistoleer/smuggler DESTROY a riflemen yesterday in PvP, it was as simple as this: Lowblow, run in and pistolwhip twice... that's right... it took -2- pistolwhip2's to take the riflemen out... Knockeddown + holding rifle = 450% damage increase.
Ouch.
Yeah, and the reason why the BH Carbine skills seem so 'elite' right now is because they have shots that are not meant to be spammed (Confusion and Knockdown), where Carbineer has shots they need to spam, and other special attacks for the carbineer simply don't exist or are bugged. The big problem comes into this when the HAM is farked for the carbineer, making spamming special attacks very damaging to yourself, which no other weapon has (when compared to the HAM cost of carbines). Combine these two and you have BH Carbineers that can switch to their carbine for two shots, and then switch back to their pistol for the rest of the fight, where as Carbineers are stuck with their HAM sucking attacks (those that work anyhow).
Also there is the problem that Bounty Hunters believe that they should be the end-all be-all of PvP, which simply can not hold true, as it would destroy the balance of the game. If BH and Carbine were balanced so that someone who went eaither route could be an effective warrior in PvP fights, then a lot of BH would cry that they are not better, and if BH WAS better than Carbine (when using carbine) then everyone would cry and switch to Bounty Hunter, and the balance of the game would be completly gone.
I disagree that no other weapon has the HAM cost problems of carbine. I've used both carbine and rifle.Rifle also requires the constant spamming of specials to be effective, and the mind costs of the higher level rifles are huge. Back when I was a rifleman, I went on a hunting expedition on Lok with 2 carbine users (laser carbines) and 2 pistol users (scout blasters, I believe). I was using a laser rifle. Everyone (even the carbine users) was amazed and how quickly I could blow through my mind pool with Head Shot 2. Everyone was pretty much spamming specials, and I was easily draining the fastest. And, unlike pistol or carbine, I couldn't use meds to regenerate my lost HAM. And this was with a laser rifle. The T21 HAM costs are 50% higher, so a rifleman would deplete his mind pool in just a few shots. So, carbine's HAM burn problem is not unique. What actually is unique is the fact that pistol doesn't burn HAM doing specials.
Greetings. Any bh that uses the 'we spend more skill points for master bh than you do for master carbineer/pistoleer' arguement needs to **edit** because you know it's bull**edit**.
A master carbineer spends 92 points (or 98 if you count the master marksman box since it adds carbine skills) and over3.5 million carbine exp if I remember right. A bh spends 49 points for carbine skills, or 50 if they aren't just dabbling and go all the way to master.About 1 millioncarbine exp. So you're saying that after spending almost 1/2 of the skill points towards carbine skills andless than 1/3of the exp that a bh should be better with carbines than a carbineer?
That whole argument about skill points spent on BH or carbine related skills is kind of pointless, both sides aresorta right. But the way the bounty hunter profession is right now, and the way weapons work at master, you just cant make it work.
Carbineers and pistols should be better at using carbines and pistols than a bounty hunter is, sure, but considering bounty hunter is still a combat profession that spent 200+ skill points, (yes I know alot of those were on non combat stuff but it doesnt make them less of a combat profession,besides, they still spent more points on combatskills even if you count out the non combat ones) they should be better in combat overall than a carbineer or a pistoleer.. But how does that happen when they basically dont get anything else than those 2 weapons? It doesnt.
Saying the weapon variety makes them more powerful isnot very good basis for that, the way the weapons work its not really a huge advantage to be able to use a pistol or carbine or lightning cannon, cause there is no huge difference with effective ranges and all that stuff related to it.. Or different specials, what was the plan, combine health shots with some action shots and then finish it off with some eyeshots to take down your target more efficiently? 
Balancing thatisn't reallypossible without making one of the classes mad.. Not without changing the BH class to get something extra or making the guns a LOT more dependant on effective range etc.
Sarne wrote:
...a lot of deleted stuff at the beginning...
Balancing thatisn't reallypossible without making one of the classes mad.. Not without changing the BH class to get something extra or making the guns a LOT more dependant on effective range etc.
i agree that the entire BH profession should be looked at. it seems to me like 2 elite professions were crammed into 2 chains (the pistol and carbine chain), a LLC chain is added that's mostly worthless (maybe not, after the new changes to the LLC go live soon) and a way to hunt down insanely tough NPC's for money.
i really don't have any suggestions as to what could/should be done with BH, but the other hybrid classes (smuggler, BE, squad leader, combat medic, commando, etc.) all have several unique features to the class that don't (see, i said it, don't) infringe upon other hybrd/elite classes (well, with some possible exceptions of BE and CH...). just having the investigation line unique doesn't seem enough to me (former BH here, i dropped it due to lack of interest...it was only filler anyway). i know, wrong forum for this and all, but since there are so many BH's posting here anyway, maybe they'll see it.
having the BH be a true unique class instead of one that 'steals' 2 current elite classes plus parts of another hybrid (carbineer/pistoleer, commando) should/would solve many of the conflicts that arise about BH's pwn j00 vs. i am ub3r 1337 carbineer, and never lose to BH's! (i apologize for typing in stupid, really, but that's what the arguments have come down to, IMO)
I agree that BH should be completely overhauled.
Redundency is the issue here, at least as far as I am concerned.
BHs have nothing that sets them apart from the other classes in respect to a cerain "niche" which they fill.
Currently BH's have alot of prerequisites, and good attacks, but they dont have anything that really sets them apart other than that.
BH's need some fixing, and carbineers need to be powerd up some.
The fact that the majority of the problems revolve around the BH, and the CH leads me to believe that those 2 classess need to be looked at first. They just nerfed ch pretty well, and pistoleer is next on the chopping block, so hopefully they'll work thier way aropund to fixing BH.
Heres an idea for a BH fix, why not make BH's more "bounty" related, give them skills and moves which they can only perform on thier marks. Then instate PVP bounties. BH now becomes a mission driven PVP based class which people will take if they want to do missions which involve hunting people down and killing them, not just a class everyone takes for the best knockdowns, and fastest bonuses.
The skill point argument is only really used by those ub3r l33t d00ds that must be the best in pvp. And because at one point the BH(and still is) a very powerful skill tree. The skill point argument holds no merit, nor does comparing classes. This is not a rock/paper/scissors game like others (i.e. mage kills fighter, archer kills mage, fighter kills archer), so it's not suppose to be pistoleer kills rifle, carbineer kills pistoleer, rifle kills carbineer, and BH hybrid of the 3.They are just skill trees.
No its definitely not rock paper scissors, but the professions still need to be balanced for the sake of the game,specially in pvp. And skill points spent (on combat related skills) defining it is the only possible way to do that.
Since a carbineer or pistoleer can master something else, like say, doctor. If the BH and carbineer were about equal in the start, now the carbineer/doctor will be twice as powerful as the BH, and you have all those mentioned uber leet guys flocking to those professions instead of the BH, same deal, maybe with a bit more variety, but still.. BHs would become pretty much a useless profession combat wise since a combination of something else is always more powerful than them and they cant pick anything else on top of the BH