Carbineer Archive
Thread: We have a crappy knockdown..
It seems the carbineer's role is to pin or stun / blind / dizzy (if the dizzy effect from fullauto didn't disappear instantly) the target while the rest of the team gets in and shoots it up.
Granted that legshot, burst and crippling shot are pretty effective when you fight solo, but half of the attacks are useless solo.
Why has carbineer been picked as a support class? Surely rifleman would be better suited to a group support role, as they have a longer range than carbines and suck if the target gets close.
Carbines, however, are pretty fast (especially when sliced / powered up) and do respectable damage. I think the carbineer profession needs to be seriously rethought so we aren't left hanging back pinning when the riflemen (if anyone) should be doing our job.
ZeppLledo wrote:
The knockdown time might be too short, and the HAM cost might be way too high, but it is an extremely powerful skill. Keep in mind that it's a guaranteed knockdown and even though it only knocks the victim down for 1 second, that's more than enough time to keep him off your back. Follow that up with Actionshot or Knockdownfire and you'd be amazed how effective this is!
Or you could just use actionshot1, thus stopping the target and applying a bleed. Same affect, one fewer shots.
While Actionshot1 might work with lesser mobs, it's nowhere near dependable on the big ones. I can't even begin to stress that Chargeshot1 is a GUARANTEED knockdown. There is no other skill that is as dependable as this. There is nothing wrong with Chargeshot1 really. It has its limitations but it's extremely powerful when used in the right situation. It's the one skill I use a lot in PvE.
They are short like carbines in the movies, but are refered to as baster rifles in the SW databank and on JKII. Strange seeing as they are so short...
I don't entirely agree with you Kaffis. I do think that the current carbineer specials make a good support class - supression fire, actionshot, full auto area etc.
However, a carbine is an assault weapon, not a support one. Their shorter range and burst / fullauto attacks means that we should be getting stuck in with the melee players and pistoleers.
I think that if anyone should be doing the supporting, it should be the riflemen or a new support profession - similar to commando but with emphasis on support not raw firepower.
Chikitta wrote:
I thought stormtroopers carried blaster rifles, Kaffis?
They are short like carbines in the movies, but are refered to as baster rifles in the SW databank and on JKII. Strange seeing as they are so short...
I don't entirely agree with you Kaffis. I do think that the current carbineer specials make a good support class - supression fire, actionshot, full auto area etc.
However, a carbine is an assault weapon, not a support one. Their shorter range and burst / fullauto attacks means that we should be getting stuck in with the melee players and pistoleers.
I think that if anyone should be doing the supporting, it should be the riflemen or a new support profession - similar to commando but with emphasis on support not raw firepower.
Well, fairly "cannon" sources have been in conflict for a long time on stormtrooper "rifles." But there's one thing they agree on -- it's an E-11. Whether that E-11 is a carbine, or a rifle, changes depending on who you talk to (and heck, this game even represents that, by having a model of E11 that's each!). Old West End (/mourn -- nothing like tossing a bajillion d6's) RPG editions called it a carbine, to my knowledge. More recent d20 SWRPG editions tend to lump carbines and rifles into the same general category. For instance, the Arms and Equipment Guide has, in their weapons section, categories for Blaster Pistols, Heavy Blaster Pistols, Rifles and Carbines, and Sporting Rifles. They make more of a distinction between pistols and heavy pistols than they do between rifles and carbines!
However, when they get down to it, they have this to say about the E-11: "The most identifiable blaster rifle in existence, the compact E-11 looks almost like a carbine at first glance. Its lightweight stock folds up underneath the body of the weapon, and its cooling fins and heat vents reduce the need for a long barrel..."
So, we see the ultimate source of confusion. It has a collapsable stock, and an abnormally short barrel. Now, depending on how you define a carbine, this could be the very definition of a carbine. But, since SWRPG is more concerned with categorizing their weapons by firing modes (all the non-sporting rifles, as well as the carbines, support multi-fire or automatic-fire firing modes, whereas sporting rifles are single-fire) and range increments (an accuracy-by-range mechanic of d20 systems -- but it's interesting to note that the E-11 is a little longer than any of the carbines, but there are a few "rifles" that have shorter range increments than the "carbines" they give), they don't pay much attention to the distinction.
SWG, on the other hand, makes their distinction by range and applicable specials -- none of the rifles in SWG have moves that are"automatic fire," for instance. So, they shrug and make the E-11 both a rifle and a carbine.
In my mind, however, it's most certainly a carbine. A powerful and accurate one, to be sure, but a carbine nonetheless. The short barrel, and optionally retractable stock (you can spot instances of stormtroopers using it both ways in the movies if you look) seal the deal for me. I attribute the conventional name of "stormtrooper rifle" to the drop in the use of the term carbine -- instead, today, we have "light assault rifles" that fit pretty much any definition of carbine that you throw at them, so why not call them a rifle, too?
Now that that's done with, on to your other point. I think that we ARE an assault role. We just don't specialize in single target assault. Give me a group of people to attack, and I'll make use of our wide array of AE attacks (well, once they all work) to dish out way more damage to the group than a pistoleer or rifleman would. But, since they give us the "automatic fire" weapons, that also means we're responsible for the AE knockdowns (once they fix disarming shot 2 to do whatever the hell it's supposed to), and AE bleeds. This makes us a support class, via crowd controlling tactics. Throw in that we get a host of status effects tacked onto our moves, and it's even more so. Is there something wrong with this? No, I think it falls in line with what I'd expect. The riflemen are going to be the high damage from range profession/weapon, with slow target acquisition (refire rate -- they can take one person out quick, but it'll take them a (relatively) long time to start in on the next guy), there's no other obvious option given what they choose to call a rifle in this game. Pistols are going to be the fast shooting accurate weapons -- ideal for single-target close range combat where they can switch targets quickly after downing them.
Maybe you're just suggesting that WE should be the single-target and multiple target high damage guys? And give pistol all the status effects to make them a support weapon?
I don't think either is ideal. I'm happy with carbineer as it is -- I'm valuable in single-target situations because I can apply some nice status effects for my group (my pikeman buddy hates it when I legshot -- even though he can target action, too -- cause he'd rather I kept the stuff he's tanking blinded and stunned with full-auto). And in multi-target situations, I get to shine with good damage to the whole group.
However, I think that combat options as a whole could be vastly improved by creating 2 or 3 new supplemental combat professions -- akin to the dirty fighting line in smuggler -- that grant new moves (but no skill mods) to be used in conjunction with elite weapon professions, much like smugglers are now. I would also revamp bounty hunters to fit this category (adjusting their prereqs to allow for mastery of a weapon-based profession, in the process), and probably throw in something like a shock trooper (with a defensive orientation, perhaps), and a dedicated support oriented complementary profession, though you got me as to what I'd call it. If this were done, I would recommend adjusting the carbine to do more damage on its single-target moves, and remove a few of the status effects from our repetoire, and instead place them on this support profession as moves in their own right.